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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Elohiym: Creator

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Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


Hi again dear brother crsschk,

I have decided to address this question in a different message. Please bear with me.

Quote:""""There is not one command in the book of Genesis to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. In the language of Canright, "There is no statement that any of the patriarchs kept the Sabbath or knew anything about it. Sabbatarians say the record is so brief that it was omitted. Their proof, then, is what was left out!" """"""

Your text says that there is no record that people kept the Sabbath before Exodus 16, but that doesn't help your argument either. If there is no record it means that for all we know it could have been either way, Right?

Well, we know this.

Genesis 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Ok, we know that Abraham kept God's commandments, now I believe the Sabbath was included here, You cannot prove to me that it wasn't but I can say this to you.

Someone most definetly kept the sabbath way before Abraham.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Well God for one did.

Now Here we have the account that the Almighty God, creator of it all, Rested on that day and sanctified it and yet we look for human exemple to give us assurance that it was in fact observed.

So your question was.

"""""There is no statement that any of the patriarchs kept the Sabbath or knew anything about it."""""

Oh yes, someone much more important that any human on the whole universe kept and gave us the exemple...

God the Almighty One.

If I were to follow the exemple of anybody, that would be the exemple the God left, nobody else matters.....

and this is what Moses said about the sabbath in regard of God's resting in it.

Exodus 31:17 'It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

God felt refreshed.

You might say again for the children of Israel, but again Isaiah said this.

Isaiah 56:3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"

Isaiah 56:6 " Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants -- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant --

I for one Am a foreigner(Gentile), but I have joined myself to the Lord to be part of His holy people.


Is the fourth Commandment still valid for the Jew? If a jew comes to Christ is the SAbbath still binding to Him?

God Bless us all.....

 2008/4/21 6:57Profile

Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


What absurdity to argue over a day when our foundation, who is Christ, and our faith, in none other than in the death, burial and bodily resurrection of our Lord is at stake.

Adventists were affected by both the Jehovah's Witnesses (who began as Adventists) and the Mormons. The JW's and SDA's both predicted Jesus' return in the early 1870's, denying Jesus' bodily resurrection to allow his spiritual presence. In 1898, SDA's Uriah Smith in his book "Looking Unto Jesus", wrote "With the Son, the evolution of deity, as deity, ceased".

Worse yet, calling Christ an angel, namely Michael the Archangel, and affirming his body dropped off at his ascension, denies He is returning 'in the flesh'. The SDA holds the view He is the Archangel who comes from heaven for his saints.

Here we must note 2 Jn 7 "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who deny Christ is coming in the flesh, this is the deceiver and the antichrist" Scripture attests Jesus' bodily resurrection & ascension, that He'll return 'in like manner', He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily; He is 'the man Christ Jesus' in heaven today. We are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh. When the Lord returns we will be like Him, receiving glorified resurrection bodies.

SDA's make Him an angel, making him to be a spirit, and denies He's coming in the flesh, which makes their teaching both false, and worse yet, anti Christ-against Christ Himself.

What is of more importance here, a day?


R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/21 9:27Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Wherewithal

[i]That this reasoning is incorrect and the whole argument unsound I shall now proceed to show.

1. The Book of Genesis, including these words, was not written at the time of the creation of man, but twentyfive hundred years later, by Moses himself. In fact, this statement of Moses' in Gen. 2:2, 3 was not written until after the covenant enjoining the seventh day Sabbath upon the Jews had been delivered upon Sinai.

2. The language clearly proves that God did not bless and sanctify the day back at Eden when he rested, but at a later date. "And he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all his work which God created and made." He blessed and sanctified the day "because in it HE HAD rested." He rested back in Eden. But God's rest did not make the day holy. It was not holy in itself. Twentyfive hundred years later God in the wilderness blessed and sanctified the seventh day as a holy day to the Jewish nation, and assigned as one reason for doing so that "in it he had rested." After God blessed and sanctified the day in the wilderness, Moses wrote the book of Genesis; and in writing the account of the creation he said that God began resting on the seventh day from all his work, and that the same day on which God had rested he now [17] sanctified and blessed. Here again the inspired Word points to the wilderness for the institution of the Sabbath.

"As this narrative, i. e., Gen. 2:2, 3, was composed after the delivery of the law, for their special instruction, so this passage was only intended to confirm more forcibly I that institution; or that it is to be understood as if Moses had said, 'God rested on the seventh day, which he has since blessed and sanctified.' "—Kitto's Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature. To this we say amen. The language of Genesis II cannot be understood in any other light, unless the text is wrested.

"As the seventh day was erected into a Sabbath, on account of God's resting upon that day from the work of creation, it was but natural enough in the historian, when he had related the history of the creation, and of God's ceasing from it on the seventh day, to add, 'And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that on it he had rested from all his work which God created and made'; although the blessing and sanctification, that is, the religious distinction and appropriation of that day, were not made till many ages after. The words do not assert that God then blessed and sanctified the seventh day, but that he blessed and sanctified it for that reason.'' Paley: Moral and Political Philosophy, Book IV, ch. 7.

On this point I quote the following from Canright:

"As Moses wrote his books after he came to Sinai, after the Sabbath had been given in the wilderness, he here mentions one reason why God thus gave them the seventh day, viz.: because God himself had set the example at creation; had worked six days and rested the seventh. Such use of language is common. We say General Grant was born at such a time. We do not mean that he was a general then, but we mention it by anticipation, using a title which he afterwards bore. So in Gen. 3:20, 'Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.' Here is a future fact stated as though it had already occurred. So 1 Sam. 4 :1, the Jews 'pitched beside Eben ezer.' But the place was not named Ebenezer till years after (1 Sam. 7:12). 'Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor' (Luke 6:16). Here a future fact with regard to Judas is mentioned when he is first spoken [18] of, though the act of betrayal did not take place till years later. Just so when the seventh day is first mentioned, its sanctification is referred to, though it did not occur till afterwards."

3. "Though the record from Adam to Moses covers a period of twenty five hundred years; though we appear to have a full account of the religious customs and worship of the patriarchs, such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc., though we are told about circumcision, the altar, the sacrifices, the priests, the tithe, the oath, marriage, feast days, etc.; yet never a word is said about anyone keeping the Sabbath."—Canright.

The first mention of the Sabbath's being kept by anyone is recorded in Exodus 16. It began with Moses and was instituted in the wilderness. To go back of Moses for proof in favor of Saturday keeping is going outside the Bible, into the fogs and mists of speculation and darkness.[/i]

Brother, it is difficult to go knee deep into all this especially if we were to continue jumping back and forth ... Maybe I need to rephrase and clarify that ... Unfortunately I don't have the wherewithal (time mainly) to answer each and every question you put forth. Just as well, I am not all that versed on this specifically anyway, hence my appeal to others more studied on the matter. Guess I would just present the same challenge, to just read through the whole of it, unbiased as you can (recognize that difficulty) and see if it doesn't present some thinking and further study.

Found it helpful in more ways than one, that is beyond the matter of the sabbath, as mentioned earlier on to matters of the law and covenants in general and so forth. It is a great deal to absorb and am, still processing it, in fact still have the last couple of chapters to yet finish.

The things that are striking and up in the contemplation are;

"out of Egypt" (The repetition in so many verses)

"The tablets" (And the correlations brought to bear between the testaments, Paul's reasoning for instance)

"The veil" (Again similar, Moses and Paul's "Taken away")

Again, Hebrews looms large as does Romans and of course all the other excerpts being used in Colossians and so forth.

There is a very good post around here that Philologos penned some time back that is also very helpful in understanding all this. Will see if I can dig it back up for even more consideration.

Mike Balog

 2008/4/21 10:06Profile

Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


Elohiym, Our Creator, and the Triune God, sanctified and blessed the seventh day Sabbath at Creation,long before, there was a Jewish nation.

There is no Scripture in the Bible, that, says, He changed, or abolished the Sabbath.

A sign of The Antichrist is "...he thinks to change times and laws." Dan 7:25. There is, only, one time mentioned in His Covenant - the Sabbath.

The Catholic Church says:

"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has the power to institute festivals of precept?"

"Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, A CHANGE FOR WHICH THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY." -Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

The "Mother of Harlots" changed the day to Sunday.

Sunday is called, "The Lord's Day" in sun worship. Jesus referred to Himself, as "The Lord of the Sabbath." Mt 12:8;Mk 2:28;Lu 6:5.

Some have said, that, the disciples met on the first day as seen in Acts 20:7. In the Greek, this passage reads,"And the one of the Sabbaths, having been assembled the disciples to break bread, Paul reasoned to them, being about to depart on the morrow."

Paul spoke to them past the sundown of the Sabbath into the first day of the week.

The children of Israel, Jesus, His disciples, and the New Testament Christians kept the Sabbath.

If you think, that, the Sabbath is obsolete, then, you are rejecting the prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ:

He said, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Mt 24:20,21


True faith is obedient to the Word of God. Rom 16:26.

 2008/4/21 13:52Profile

Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86



May I ask you a question? Do the Angels keep the sabbath? If so, how? Is it according to our time clock of a 24 hour day? What time zone do they keep?

Is this Sabbath the same as the 4th Commandment of the 10 Commandments, or another?

Are Angels also subject to the 10 Commandments?

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/21 14:22Profile

Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135


quote "There is no Scripture in the Bible, that, says, He changed, or abolished the Sabbath"

Not only the Sabbath, but "all of the ordinances that were against us were taken out of the way, nailed to the cross" (see Col. 2:14) which is why no man should as it says in vs.16 "judge me in respect of the Sabbath".

You are picking what scriptures fit your view and leaving out others. You speak as though we are under the law. "Tell me, you that wish to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" (Gal.4:21)

"I through the law am DEAD to the law, that I might live unto God". Gal. 2:19 and the law only has dominion over a man as long as he lives (Romans 7:1) "We are dead to the law by the body of Christ...." in vs.4.

What does it mean to be dead to the law? Can I be dead to the law and still keep a sabbath day which is of the law?

How can you say what you do in light of these truths? Consider the context of all the verses you are must consider who they were spoken to, by who, when they were given.

In matthew 24 Jesus is talking to jews that still hold the sabbath.

The commandments Jesus refers to are not the same as the 10 commandments for we died to the law (the 10 commandments) that we may belong to Another.(vs.4)

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us as we walk after the Spirit...obeying Him (His commands through the Spirit)Rom.8:4

The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal.2:24) until we received the adoption as sons (4:5) Here in enters the Spirit of Christ whom we obey. The Spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba....not the spirit of bondage again to fear (Romans8:15) like when we were in bondage to the elements of this world (Gal.4:3)observing days, months, times and years (vs.9-10) meat, drink, holydays, new moon or the sabbath (col.2:16) meats, drinks, carnal ordinances (Heb.9:10) Are you dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world? Then why do you want to be subject to such things? Why do you want to be under the law after being justified by faith? All these things were a shadow of what was to come (Col.2:17) The law was a shadow of things to come. (heb.10:1)

The law is spiritual as it says in Romans. Sure, it is summed up by the 1st 2 commands...good luck fulfilling those in the flesh by the law (in your own strength) No, it is by faith. The Spirit produces His fruit as we daily through the cross lay ourselves down. We walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh...if we walk after the law (includes the Sabbath)we can be certain that the works of the flesh will be there.

Randy Lambert

 2008/4/21 22:11Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Is this the biblical Sabbath that you are keeping?

A Typical Shabbat
At about 2PM or 3PM on Friday afternoon, observant Jews leave the office to begin Shabbat preparations. The mood is much like preparing for the arrival of a special, beloved guest: the house is cleaned, the family bathes and dresses up, the best dishes and tableware are set, a festive meal is prepared. In addition, everything that cannot be done during Shabbat must be set up in advance: lights and appliances must be set (or timers placed on them, if the household does so), the light bulb in the refrigerator must be removed or unscrewed, so it does not turn on when you open it, and preparations for the remaining Shabbat meals must be made.

Shabbat, like all Jewish days, begins at sunset, because in the story of creation in Genesis Ch. 1, you will notice that it says, "And there was evening, and there was morning, one day." From this, we infer that a day begins with evening, that is, sunset. For the precise time when Shabbat begins and ends in your area, consult the list of candle lighting times provided by the Orthodox Union, by Chabad or by any Jewish calendar.

Shabbat candles are lit and a blessing is recited no later than eighteen minutes before sunset. This ritual, performed by the woman of the house, officially marks the beginning of Shabbat. Two candles are lit, representing the two commandments: zakhor (remember) and shamor (observe), discussed above.

The family then attends a brief evening service (45 minutes - that's brief by Jewish standards - see Jewish Liturgy).

After services, the family comes home for a festive, leisurely dinner. Before dinner, the man of the house recites Kiddush, a prayer over wine sanctifying Shabbat. The usual prayer for eating bread is recited over two loaves of challah, a sweet, eggy bread shaped in a braid. The family then eats dinner. Although there are no specific requirements or customs regarding what to eat, meals are generally stewed or slow cooked items, because of the prohibition against cooking during Shabbat. (Things that are mostly cooked before Shabbat and then reheated or kept warm are OK).

After dinner, the birkat ha-mazon (grace after meals) is recited. Although this is done every day, on Shabbat, it is done in a leisurely manner with many upbeat tunes.

By the time all of this is completed, it may be 9PM or later. The family has an hour or two to talk or study Torah, and then go to sleep.

The next morning Shabbat services begin around 9AM and continue until about noon. After services, the family says kiddush again and has another leisurely, festive meal. A typical afternoon meal is cholent, a very slowly cooked stew. My recipe is below. By the time birkat ha-mazon is done, it is about 2PM. The family studies Torah for a while, talks, takes an afternoon walk, plays some checkers, or engages in other leisure activities. A short afternoon nap is not uncommon. It is traditional to have a third meal before Shabbat is over. This is usually a light meal in the late afternoon.

Shabbat ends at nightfall, when three stars are visible, approximately 40 minutes after sunset. At the conclusion of Shabbat, the family performs a concluding ritual called Havdalah (separation, division). Blessings are recited over wine, spices and candles. Then a blessing is recited regarding the division between the sacred and the secular, between Shabbat and the working days, etc. For details, see Havdalah Home Ritual.

As you can see, Shabbat is a very full day when it is properly observed, and very relaxing. You really don't miss being unable to turn on the TV, drive a car or go shopping.

Then in keeping the Sabbath are you doing it this way, if not you are not keeping it correctly and shall die.


What Is required in keeping the Sabbath according to Mosaic Law:

1. No work done at all (Ex. 20: 10; Lev. 23: 3; Jer. 17:21-22). No watering the lawn, no working in the yard, no hobbies, no surfing, no fixing flat tires, etc. By law if a person did not stop all types of activity in honor of the Sabbath, he was breaking the law. In Numbers 15:32-36 a man was caught collecting sticks on the Sabbath, and he received a rock concert from the people he knew.

2 No kindling of a fire (Ex. 35:3). No fellowship cookouts or barbecues. You can't go into a restaurant and get a hamburger that's been flame broiled, you can't cook eggs, or pancakes in the morning because you'd be kindling a fire for cooking. To drive a car would be to "kindle a fire" In the combustion chamber of your engine.

3. No traveling (Ex. 16:29). Later the Jews added to this law, allowing only a half mile of travel on the Sabbath which we see observed in the NT. But the pure law says "stay at home." Actually, If you kept this part of the law, you could not travel to your church gathering unless it was less than one-quarter mile away from home. If you had an emergency you could not drive to the hospital.

4. No trading (Amos 8:5). If you happened to need gas to get to church service, you could not "trade" money for gasoline. You would not be allowed to buy a cassette tape of that morning's message or a book at the store. There is to be No exchanging of money for goods. If you worked with stocks and you needed to sell you couldn’t.

5. No marketing (Neh. 10:31; 13:15,19). Make sure you do no shopping whatsoever. You can't buy any ice cream for dessert after dinner or anything else. If you run out of food or drink at home you can’t go out to purchase any, you can’t even by a stick of gum.

6."... a holy assembly with double the daily offering along with the other offerings. In other words, you are to give twice as much on the Sabbath (Num. 28:9).Do we practiced this today In compliance with Old Testament law. Do Sabbatarian's really practice the law? I have yet to see people go to Shabbat and give twice as much each week.

7. New showbread In the holy place (Lev. 24:8). Of course this cannot be done today since there is no temple, so this part of the Sabbath cannot be followed by the church. The fact Is the Sabbath was not made for the gentiles, but for the Jews and their generations Ex. 31:12-17). It's a law given between God and the Jews.

8.The last part of the requirements for keeping the Sabbath day law Is the penalty for breaking It. DEATH

(adapted from B. Stonebrakers trac Sabbath breakers)

God instructed how the Sabbath was to be observed: Do Sabbatarian's abide by all these laws?


Lev 16:2 7.Unauthorized entrance into the holy place of the tabernacle:

Lev.20:1, 2 -- Sacrificing their children to Molech (abortion, killing infants) this was a heathen divinity of the Ammonites.

v.6 If one goes to Mediums and familiar spirits.

v.9 Curses at one's parents.

v.10 Commits adultery.

v.12 'If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death.

v.13 Homosexuality, a man lying another man.

v.14 Marries a woman and her mother.

v.15, 16 Men or women having sex with animals. both man and beast are to be killed.

v.16 'And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD

v.27 If one is a medium, or a witch or one who practices the occult. ( astrology, talking to the dead, predicting the future)

Lev. 24:21 'And whoever kills an animal shall restore it; but whoever kills a man shall be put to death.

Ex. 12:12-13,19 those who do not keep the feast of unleaven bread and the Sabbath Ex.31:14 are cut off for violation of both days. The Death penalty

Exod. 19:12-13 or touching the mount Horeb:

Exod. 21:12 If a man kills another he is to die 15 "And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.16"He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.17"And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.'

v.22 "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, and the baby dies he will give life for life.

Deut. 13:5 One who leads people to other Gods by prophecy or dreams.

Deut.17:12-13 For disobeying ceremonial commands of any Priest.

1 Sam 6:19 For looking into the Ark; For touching the Ark: 2 Sam 6:7 3.Aaron's sons, (Nadab and Abihu) priests were killed for violating ceremonial law when offering incense to Yahweh.

how many days are you to work and rest?

Lev. 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings."

Deut. 5:12-14 "Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall not do any work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you." If you have any friends over that are not Christian they must observe the rest day also.

Also Remember there is to be no traveling (Ex. 16:29) No trading no buying (Amos 8:5). Not only does it affect your household but in Exod. 16:23 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.'" Since you are not allowed to trade or buy you can't cook either it must be done the day before.

Now lets look at the penalty for breaking the Sabbath and apply what we now know to rightly observing it.

Num. 15:32-35 "Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."

Exod 31:14-15 "You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 'Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." (also Num. 15:32-36).

Exod. 35:2 "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death." You cannot separate the punishment from the breaking of the law,

Here's a good question, Do you or your congregation work for 6 days? Or 5? The actual whole command is to work 6 days with only the 7th observed as a rest day. Many Sabbatarian's observe Sunday just like Saturday except for the gathering in Church (which there is no command to do). So if your not doing this your still breaking the Sabbath, even if you take Sunday off.

How many times does one need to break the Sabbath to receive its penalty? Only once. All one has to do is look at the penalty of breaking any of the law to prove its requirements are not enforced today. Nor would they want them to be.

Was there ever a law God gave that reversed ANY of the Sabbath day restrictions? NO! Were the punishments ever negated or are they still enforced. One has to be consistent, they can’t say we are under grace for the penalty and not under grace in the keeping of the day. Either the Sabbath is no longer to be practiced by obligation or one needs to practice it correctly.

Those who worship on Saturday are not actually keeping God's command for the Sabbath, because they break the letter of the law. Especially when they try to lay guilt upon others for not keeping the Sabbath. Many say we are observing it by the Spirit of the law and then reinterpret it the way they want to. Either they practice by the letter which it is written in or they should admit to not upholding it correctly. When someone forces their practice upon others without upholding it themselves it then becomes legalism, and is hypocritical to say the least. Jesus dealt with the Pharisees, of whom he said, "they tie up heavy loads and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.' (Matt. 23:4) Those who seek to lay guilt on others for not keeping the Sabbath are practicing modern-day Pharsaism. They break the Sabbath themselves, but are ignorant of the laws requirements in the word of God. They become something they would certainly want to avoid.

In Christ the Sabbath and worshiping Him and resting in Him 24-7: Phillip


 2008/4/22 5:57Profile



The [i]vehement hatred for and ceaseless arguments and persuasions tirelessly waged against the keeping of the commandments of God[/i] are astounding. What depths people go to in order to negate, villify, and wipe out the commandments of YHVH, the Most High God of Israel! Satan, the adversary, has done this from the beginning - back in the Garden, whispering......[i]"did God say"[/i]....

When Yeshua, the Messiah, our great High Priest, the Mediator between God and man returns, [u]be sure to have your case against the keeping of His Father's Torah - teachings, instructions, commandments of God, well prepared.[/u] He died to redeem us from the [i]curse due to us for breaking[/i] that Torah - let us not boldly continue doing so, trampling underfoot the blood of Messiah.

-- Do outline carefully how that when our Master told us in Matthew 5 that [b]he had not come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill it - and that we are not to relax even the least of the commandments,[/b] you insist and teach that he actually meant 'abolish'?

-- Perhaps explain away how our Master's answer to someone in Matthew 19, [b]"Why do you ask me what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments".[/b]

-- Remind us what our Master, Yeshua, meant when he said: [b]"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders.."[/b] (note: it does [i]not[/i] say that God's laws are hard to bear).

-- Tell us then, [i]those who so dare,[/i] why so many [u]accuse our Father, the Creator of the Universe, who in His great love and wisdom gave us His Torah that you insist is, quote, "[i]impossible to keep[/i]"?[/u] (in direct contradiction to what HE said in Deut 30:11-14).

-- Explain to all assembled on that great day, how that the New Covenant, made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, and to which according to HIS great mercy, the gentiles are invited to be [u]grafted in[/u] to, does not really mean what it says, according to the wisdom of the gentile greco-roman mindset?

-- Carefully tell how the following verses pertaining to the New Covenant, mediated by Yeshua, [i]do not[/i] mean that [u][b]YHVH's laws will be written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit, causing us to walk in them[/b][/u]...........
......... Justify the position that many take against those who have turned to YHVH through the glorious accomplishment of His dear Son, and have received the Holy Spirit, having YHVH's laws written on their heart and seek to live by them, are so-called [i]'fallen from grace' or turning back to 'weak and beggarly elements' or 'trampling the blood of Messiah'[/i], and other such twisted use of scripture and vain accusation?

[u]Jer.31: 31-33[/u] [b]"Behold, the days are coming, says YHVH, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says YHVH.
But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."[/b]

[u]Eze.36:26-27[/u] [b]"A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.[/b]

At his last Passover meal, Yeshua said of the cup of blessing, the third Passover cup, that it was "the blood of the covenant shed for many" (Mark 14:24), "the blood of the covenant shed for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt 26:28), "the new covenant in my blood" (1 Cor 11:25) or "the new covenant in my blood shed for you" (Luke 22:20).

[u]Heb: 8: 6-13[/u] [b]"But as it is, the Messiah has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.
For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says YHVH,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah;
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
for they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I paid no heed to them, says YHVH.
This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says YHVH:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach every one his fellow
or every one his brother, saying, `Know YHVH,'
for all shall know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."[/b]

-- Explain too why you have discouraged and tried to turn many away from obeying the commandments of God. Since the days of the Council of Laodicea when 7th day sabbath keeping was outlawed by the Church, until today, the [u][b]"dragon has made war on those who keep the commandments of God and bear the testimony to Yeshua"[/b][/u] (Rev. 12:17 and Rev 14:16).

Perhaps some could try and justify the Easter celebrations and such things that have [i]replaced the Feasts of YHVH?[/i] We have just finished the Passover Remembrance. We now count 7 weeks to the Day of Pentecost, the day the Torah was given by YHVH unto Moses, and which day many years later the Spirit was given unto those who were keeping the Feast of Weeks (Shavuot), writing this same Torah on their hearts, and causing them to walk in it, because of all that their elder brother, Yeshua - the perfect, chosen and anointed one, had done.

Thank you.

 2008/4/22 10:31

Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


Psalms 103:20

Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Stephen, I asked a question you assume insulted our Creator.

I ask you again. How do these Godly creatures do His commandments? And what commandments are we referring here?

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/22 11:09Profile


Rev Benjamin,

The English word 'angel' is the Hebrew word 'malach'. It simply means 'messenger'.

The covenants were made with Israel (the house of Israel, and the house of Judah). The Torah was given to Israel.

That the messengers of God do his bidding, is clear in scripture. Not all do/did, as it is also clear that some rebelled, and were cast out.


 2008/4/22 12:19

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