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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God's grace runs out.

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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Since we are on the topic..

Here are some verses that seem to support John McArthur's view.

1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Cr 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

Damnation in verse 29 and judged in verse 32 are very similar as YLT points out. The word translated damnation doesn't mean eternal hell or condemnation- just judgment.

29for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink -- not discerning the body of the Lord.
32and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened, that with the world we may not be condemned;

Do these verses say that they are judged because of this sin, this judgment is God's chastisement, and what this judgment resulted in was some being sick and others dying, yet the end result was that they are not condemned with the world? Doesn't God only chastise his own sons?

I think these verses hold a lot more weight for that doctrine that 1 John.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 14:16Profile









 Re: God's grace runs out


Hi Josh,

I have never thought of either Ananias or Sapphira being struck dead. I thought they died from fright at being found out by God.

Whereas, the young man who touched the Ark of the Covenant [i]was[/i] struck down by God.

Quote:
Herod

Remind me, please?

Quote:
a red wagon definition

;-)

Yeah. God keeps it simple.

 2008/4/8 14:23
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Act 12:21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
Act 12:22 And the people gave a shout, [saying, It is] the voice of a god, and not of a man.
Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 14:29Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I have never thought of either Ananias or Sapphira being struck dead. I thought they died from fright at being found out by God.



That's interesting because I had never thought that before. :-D


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Josh Parsley

 2008/4/8 14:32Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

1 John 5:16 is talking about a believer seeing another believer committing an sin not unto death, and also about the sin that is unto death.

The whole verse speaks of believers. However, "death" in verse 16 applies or implicates hell (not just simply dying in the flesh)

Here is the greek word "death" in 1 John 5:16:
Thanatos
the death of the body
that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended [b]with the implied idea of future misery in hell[/b]
the power of death since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, [b]as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell[/b][url=http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2288&version=kjv]"Death" In 1 John 5:16[/url]

 2008/4/8 17:17Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

1 John 5:17-21 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Born of God, can not sin because of the birthed one in Him, Christ cannot sin. This sin unto death is not for believers. Think about it, if I don't believe I cannot be born again and the sinless one is not birthed in me, original sin applies and all personal sin, this is unto death.

Those that are born again don't in because of the sinless one in us, this is the sin of Adam that we cannot commit anymore, the sin's of the flesh we can and have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ, if we confess the sins' of the flesh God the Father is faithful and Just, (why?), Because of The Cross of Christ. Then He even cleanses us from all unrighteousness because of Christs Seed that is in us, that Seed will not be aborted because of Gods great Love for His birthed sons'.

John 3:14-19 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The sin unto death.

In Christ:Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/4/9 5:05Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
1 John 5:17-21 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Born of God, can not sin because of the birthed one in Him, Christ cannot sin. This sin unto death is not for believers. Think about it, if I don't believe I cannot be born again and the sinless one is not birthed in me, original sin applies and all personal sin, this is unto death.

Those that are born again don't in because of the sinless one in us, this is the sin of Adam that we cannot commit anymore, the sin's of the flesh we can and have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ, if we confess the sins' of the flesh God the Father is faithful and Just, (why?), Because of The Cross of Christ. Then He even cleanses us from all unrighteousness because of Christs Seed that is in us, that Seed will not be aborted because of Gods great Love for His birthed sons'.

John 3:14-19 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The sin unto death.

In Christ:Phillip



Unbelievers are ALREADY dead-simply because they believe not. They are ALREADY condemned because they believe not-they do not have to committ any single or specific act of sin to be damned-because in their present state of simply not being born-again they come into this world damned.

1 John 5:16 is about believers-not non-believers. It is about a brother (one in the faith) seeing another brother committ the sin that is NOT unto death, or the sin that is unto death. A brother can only be a person that is a part of the faith.

 2008/4/9 8:09Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

This is such an complicated scripture and with such diversity of opinions, that I have given Albert Barnes my vote in his opinion which as He states, There is no proof. In his words, "It cannot be shown."

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
1Jo 5:16
Verse 16. If a man see his brother sin a sin, etc. From the general assurance that God hears prayer, the apostle turns to a particular case in which it may be benevolently and effectually employed, in rescuing a brother from death. There has been great diversity of opinion in, regard to the meaning of this passage, and the views of expositors of the New Testament are by no means settled as to its true sense. It does not comport with the design of these Notes to examine the opinions which have been held in detail. A bare reference, however, to some of them will show the difficulty of determining with certainty what the passage means, and the impropriety of any very great confidence in one's own judgment in the case. Among these opinions are the following. Some have supposed that the sin against the Holy Ghost is intended; some that the phrase denotes any great and enormous sin, as murder, idolatry, adultery; some that it denotes some sin that was punishable by death by the laws of Moses; some that it denotes a sin that subjected the offender to excommunication from the synagogue or the church; some that it refers to sins which brought fatal disease upon the offender, as in the case of those who abused the Lord's Supper at Corinth, (Cmt. on 1Co 11:30;) some that it refers to crimes committed against the laws, for which the offender was sentenced to death, meaning that when the charge alleged was false, and the condemnation unjust, they ought to pray for the one who was condemned to death, and that he would be spared; but that when the offence was one which had been really committed, and the offender deserved to die, they ought not to pray for him, or, in other words, that by "the sin unto death," offences against the civil law are referred to, which the magistrate had no power to pardon, and the punishment of which he could not commute; and by the "sin not unto death," offences are referred to which might be pardoned, and when the punishment might be commuted; some that it refers to sins before and after baptism, the former of which might be pardoned, but the latter of which might not be; and some, and perhaps this is the common opinion among the Roman Catholics, that it refers to sins that might or might not be pardoned after death, thus referring to the doctrine of purgatory. These various opinions may be seen stated more at length in Rosenmuller, Lucke, Pool, (Synopsis,) and Clarke, in loc. To go into an examination of all these opinions would require a volume by itself, and all that can be done here is to furnish what seems to me to be the fair exposition of the passage. The word brother may refer either to a member of the church, whether of the particular church to which one was attached or to another, or it may be used in the larger sense which is common as denoting a fellow-man, a member of the great family of mankind. There is nothing in the word which necessarily limits it to one in the church; there is nothing in the connexion, or in the reason assigned, why what is said should be limited to such an one. The duty here enjoined would be the same whether the person referred to was in the church or not; for it is our duty to pray for those who sin, and to seek the salvation of those whom we see to be going astray, and to be in danger of ruin, wherever they are, or whoever they may be. At the same time, the correct interpretation of the passage does not depend on determining whether the word brother refers to one who is a professed Christian or not.
A sin which is not unto death. The great question in the interpretation of the whole passage is, what is meant by the "sin unto death." The Greek (amartia proV qanaton) would mean properly a in which tends to death; which would terminate in death; of which death was the penalty, or would be the result, unless it were arrested a sin which, if it had its own course, would terminate thus, am we should speak of a disease "unto death." Comp. Joh 11:4. The word death is used in three significations in the New Testament, and as employed here might, so far as the word is concerned, be applied in any one of those senses. It is used to denote

(a.) literally the death of the body;

(b.) spiritual death, or death "in trespasses and sin," Eph 2:1;

(c.) the "second death," death in the world of woe and despair. If the sin here mentioned refers to temporal death, it means such a sin that temporal death, must inevitably follow, either by the disease which it has produced, or by a judicial sentence where there was no hope of pardon or of a commutation of the punishment; if it refers to death in the future world, the "second death", then it means such a sin as is unpardonable. That this last is the reference here seems to me to be probable, if not clear, from the following considerations:

(1.) There is such a sin referred to in the New Testament, a sin for which there is forgiveness "neither in this life nor the life to come." Cmt. on Mt 12:31. Comp. Mr 3:29. If there is such a sin, there is no impropriety in supposing that John would refer to it here.

(2.) This is the obvious interpretation. It is that which would occur to the mass of the readers of the New Testament, and which it is presumed they do adopt; and this in general, is one of the best means of ascertaining the sons of a passage in the Bible.

(3.) The other significations attached to the word death, would be quite inappropriate here.

(a.) It cannot mean "unto spiritual death," that is, to a continuance in sin, for how could that be known? and if such a case occurred, why would it be improper to pray for it? Besides, the phrase "a sin unto spiritual death," or "unto continuance in sin," is one that is unmeaning.

(b.) It cannot be shown to refer to a disease that should be unto death, miraculously inflicted on account of sin, because, if such cases occurred, they were very rare, and even if a disease came upon a man miraculously in consequence of sin, it could not be certainly known whether it was, or was not, unto death. All who were visited in this way did not certainly die. Comp. 1Co 5:4-5, with 2Co 2:6-7. See also 1Co 11:30.

(c.) It cannot be shown that it refers to the case of those who were condemned by the civil magistrate to death, and for whom there was no hope of reprieve or pardon, for it is not certain that there were such cases; and if there were, and the person condemned were innocent, there was every reason to pray that God would interpose and save them, even when there was no hope from man; and if they were guilty, and deserved to die, there was no reason why they should not pray that the sin might be forgiven, and that they might be prepared to die, unless it were a case where the sin was unpardonable. It seems probable, therefore, to me, that the reference here is to the sin against the Holy Ghost, and that John means here to illustrate the duty and the power of prayer, by showing that for any sin short of that, however aggravated, it was their duty to pray that a brother might be forgiven. Though it might not be easy to determine what was the unpardonable sin, and John does not say that those to whom he wrote could determine that with certainty, yet there were many sins which were manifestly not of that aggravated character, and for those sins it was proper to pray. There was clearly but one sin that was unpardonable--" there is a sin unto death;" there might be many which were not of this description, and in relation to them there was ample scope for the exercise of the prayer of faith. The same thing is true now. It is not easy to define the unpardonable sin, and it is impossible far us to determine in any case with absolute certainty that a man has committed it. But there are multitudes of sins which men commit, which on no proper interpretation of the passages respecting the sin which "hath never forgiveness," can come under the description of that sin, and for which it is proper, therefore, to pray that they may be pardoned. We know of cases enough where sin may be forgiven; and, without allowing the mind to be disturbed about the question respecting the unpardonable sin, it is our duty to bear such cases on our hearts before God, and to plead with him that our erring brethren may be saved.

He shall ask. That is, he shall pray that the offender may be brought to true repentance, and may be saved.

And he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. That is, God shall give life, and he shall be saved from the eternal death to which he was exposed. This, it is said, would be given to "him" who offers the prayer; that is, his prayer would be the means of saving the offending brother. What a motive is this to prayer! How faithful and constant should we be in pleading for our fellow-sinners, that we may be instrumental in saving their souls! What joy will await those in heaven who shall see there many who were rescued from ruin in answer to their prayers! Comp. Cmt. on Jas 5:15, Cmt. on Jas 5:19.

There is a sin unto death. A sin which is of such a character that it throws the offender beyond the reach of mercy, and which is not to be pardoned. See Mr 3:28-29. The apostle does not here say what that sin is; nor how they might know what it is; nor even that in any case they could determine that it had been committed. He merely says that there is such a sin, and that he, does not design that his remark about the efficacy of prayer should be understood as extending to that.

I do not say that he shall pray for it. "I do not intend that my remark shall be extended to all sin, or mean to affirm that all possible forms of guilt are the proper subjects of prayer, for I am aware that there is one sin which is an exception, and my remark is not to be applied to that." He does not say that this sin was of common occurrence: or that they could know when it had been committed; or even that a case could ever occur in which they could determine that; he merely says that in respect to that sin he did not say that prayer should be offered. It is indeed implied in a most delicate way that it would not be proper to pray for the forgiveness of such a sin, but he does not say that a case would ever happen in which they would know certainly that the sin had been committed. There were instances in the times of the prophets in which the sin of the people became so universal and so aggravated, that they were forbidden to pray for them. Isa 14:11, "Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good;" Isa 15:1, "Then said the Lord unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people; cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth." Comp. Cmt. on Isa 1:15. But these were cases in which the prophets were directly instructed by God not to pray for a people. We have no such instruction; and it may be said now with truth, that as we can never be certain respecting any one that he has committed the unpardonable sin, there is no one for whom we may not with propriety pray. There may be those who are so far gone in sin that there may seem to be little, or almost no ground of hope. They may have cast off all the restraints of religion, of morality, of decency; they may disregard all the counsels of parents and friends; they may be sceptical, sensual, profane; they may be the companions of infidels and of mockers; they may have forsaken the sanctuary, and learned to despise the sabbath; they may have been professors of religion, and now may have renounced the faith of the gospel altogether, but still, while there is life it is our duty to pray for them, "if peradventure God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth," 2Ti 2:26. "All things are possible with God;" and he has reclaimed offenders more hardened, probably, than any that we have known, and has demonstrated that there is no form of depravity which he has not the power to subdue. Let us remember the cases of Manasseh, of Saul of Tarsus, of Augustine, of Bunyan, of Newton, of tens of thousands who have been reclaimed from the vilest forms of iniquity, and then let us never despair of the conversion of any, in answer to prayer, who may have gone astray, as long as they are in this world of probation and of hope. Let no parent despair who has an abandoned son; let no wife cease to pray who has a dissipated husband. How many a prodigal son has come back to fill with happiness an aged parent's heart! How many a dissipated husband has been reformed to give joy again to the wife of his youth, and to make a paradise again of his miserable home!

{a} "unto death" Mt 12:31-32
{b} "not say" Jer 7:16
{*} "it" "that"


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Phillip

 2008/4/9 14:05Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

So, in my simple opinion, This sin unto death is that The Holy Spirit is a liar and that Jesus Christ is of the devil. This certainly is a sin unto death, both spiritual and eternal.

Edit: I must also add, all other sin is forgivable or the efficacy of the blood is not good enough, and we are responsible for; (no forgiveness of sin), which was accomplished on the Cross and is complete.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/4/9 14:12Profile





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