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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Old man and Flesh...Different?

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warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 The Old man and Flesh...Different?

Here is a good question. Historically I know that people have associated the "old man" with the flesh. But scripture tells me that when we are born again the old man is crucified and all his desires. But then, the bible says that the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. I am proposing that maybe these two are seperated when we get saved.

(This is not a belief of mine, yet. I am throwing a bone to see what you all think and as usual I will test your answers with questions, not because i know everything, but Because I seek to see the whole matter. God Bless.)

 2008/3/4 2:11Profile









 Re: The Old man and Flesh...Different?


Hi wfg,

After we have been crucified with Christ, we are a new creature. Unless we have been crucified with Christ (allowed Him to slay the old man in us), we cannot receive the Spirit, by which to walk (Gal 5:16), and by which [i][b]if[/i][/b] we walk, we will not fulfil the desires of the flesh.

Death is very final. If your old man [u]is dead[/u], then [u]you can[/u] walk in the Spirit.

The flesh may be doing what it had been trained to do by the habits of our sins prior to new birth, but the whole point of God giving us of His Spirit, is that we can now train the flesh to walk in His ways. We can resist its propensities to sin, and we can overcome through the Spirit.

Remember that 'our old man' is a spiritual entity which corrupted the original flesh of man. Once it is dead, what is there to corrupt it? This, again, is why the renewing of the mind assists us in resisting any wrong desires of the mind of the flesh, and of our old mind.

Certainly, 'the old man' and 'the flesh' are not synonymous, even though they worked together like hand and glove before new birth. (That is, the old man was the hand, and the flesh was the glove.)

 2008/3/4 2:54
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

What do you think about when men say that sometimes we like to ressurrect our old man again? Do you think this is a biblical statement.

Next question, you said something about the old mind. Is this old mind the same as the old man? Obviously this becomes very semantical and definiitons of terms is very crucial in this kind of debate. Let me know your responses.

 2008/3/4 4:16Profile









 Re: The Old man and Flesh...Different?


Thanks for the reply... don't know how long I can hang in here but I'll share how I understand the way this all works.

To me, Heb 10:14 is a key verse, because it tells us that Christ's work has completed us in the Spirit. We now have to walk in a way of life which is unfamiliar to us, but, as we do, God backs us up with the authority and power, mental and physical strength, to live pleasing Him. If we don't begin from that platform - that it is [u]possible[/u] to please God because of what He has done for us as we rest in Christ, then it's unlikely we are going to put the power of our mind and body into following 'His steps' (1 Pet 2).

warriorforgod asked

Quote:
Is this old mind the same as the old man?

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...

What do you think?

I believe the old man inspires the lusts of the flesh and the lusts of the mind, but once we receive his death, we are, in principle (factually, not theoretically), free from the old man's inspiration (to inspire = to breathe in), if we will lay hold on this truth with our minds, and walk in this truth by faith - the faith of Him who raised Christ Jesus from the dead.

Quote:
What do you think about when men say that sometimes we like to ressurrect our old man again?

I don't think the old man wasn't slain on the cross, but salvation has to be applied by the Holy Spirit to each individual life, through that person's engagement with Christ Jesus and the Father. I have found God very gracious with our [i]ignorances[/i], but, [i][b]if[/i][/b] we do [u]know[/u] the meaning of the sin we are about to commit, it is harder (much harder), to break free again, on a number of counts, and I do believe the sinner can be saved.

Many people have a stop start kind of relationship with God - [i]as they perceive it[/i] - but He Himself has not changed, nor His word. The breakthrough from sin can be in either direction - that is, that the sinner makes the changes which will convince God he's given up sinning, or, he finds himself in need of God coming to him, to break into his personal dungeon, to release him. Either way, it's all the same truth being outworked in the experience of [i]the believer[/i], according to His (God's) invitation and promises.

Quote:
Do you think this is a biblical statement.

Absolutely not. Our old man was utterly crucified with Christ, but unless we allow ourselves to be [i]grafted into His death[/i] (Tyndale), there is no way we will find ourselves having been grafted into His life.

Are these answers any help?



 2008/3/4 7:31
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

"but once we receive his death, we are, in principle (factually, not theoretically), free from the old man's inspiration (to inspire = to breathe in), if we will lay hold on this truth with our minds,"

What do you mean by "if we lay hold on this truth?" Does that mean that if we don't lay hold, the "old man" has inspiration?

Also, Please clarify what you mean by "factually, not theoretically" and what is the difference between these two and "principle."
As I have stated before, this is very semantical and words need to be defined for my benefit. Everything else you have said as helped so far. Thanks again for your patience.

 2008/3/4 8:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
After we have been crucified with Christ, we are a new creature. Unless we have been crucified with Christ (allowed Him to slay the old man in us), we cannot receive the Spirit, by which to walk (Gal 5:16), and by which if we walk, we will not fulfil the desires of the flesh.



Dorcas, I might be mis-understanding you, but when we receive Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit comes with Him. This is our salvation. The Spirit of the Life of Christ is what sets us free from the law of Sin and death.

We are always carrying about in our body the dying of Christ that the Life of Christ is manifest.

I see these as absolute positives and not conditions.

Romans 8:10And if Christ be in you, the body [u][b]is[/b][/u] dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I don't see a condition of IF here, but fact.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: [u]but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.[/u]

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.




Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man [u][b]is[/b][/u] crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that [u][b]is[/b][/u] dead [u][b]is[/b][/u] freed from sin.

I think the problem may be not many understanding salvation to begin with. Unfortunately we have so many counterfeit gospels around.

I agree with what you are saying, but was wondering about the **if's**.


You stated:

Quote:
Death is very final. If your old man is dead, then you can walk in the Spirit.



THEN you can walk in the spirit?

Paul tells us in Galatians that the Spirit wars against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit.

We have I believe two natures with in us, our old man, Adam 1, and our New Man. Adam 1 is who is crucified with Christ..His history ended at the cross, and we need to reckon it so.

But you seem to be saying that we come to sinless perfection of our old man dying in order to walk in the Spirit?

I'm forever indebted that the **Holy Spirit** living with in me is who brings conviction of sin, putting to death my old man, and self. Without Him, we can do nothing. This will be untill we are completely redeemed and have been Glorified together with Him.


Again Colossians 2 :6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[u][i][b]9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [/b][/i][/u]

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Katy

 2008/3/4 14:12
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Here's Zac Poonen's take on the matter between flesh and the "old man":


"The old man and the flesh are not the same. The flesh is that storehouse of evil lusts within us, that opposes the will of God. We all have to carry this with us until our dying day. We could compare the flesh to a gang of robbers seeking to enter our house. The 'old man' is like an unfaithful servant inside our house who constantly opened the door for the robbers to enter. God has killed this unfaithful servant. The robbers, however, are still there, seeking to enter in the house. But now we have a new servant, the 'new man' who seeks to keep the door shut, against these robbers. The 'new man' says, "Behold I have come to do Thy will, O God" (Hebrews 10:7). Yet we know it's possible for a disciple of Jesus to sin. If the 'new man' is not strong enough, he may not be able to keep the door of his heart shut against the lusts of his flesh. This isn't because he wants the robbers to enter in, no, but because he is not strong enough to resist them. This may be because he has not fed himself sufficiently on the Word of God, or because he has not strengthened himself through prayer."

- Zac Poonen


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/3/4 15:38Profile









 Re: The Old man and Flesh...Different?


Hi Katy,

I think we're saying the same thing about the operation of faith, but perhaps calling it differently. I concentrated on 'our old man' because that's what warriorforgod asked about.

The 'if' which you quoted me saying (I believe, when you wrote 'I don't see a condition of IF here, but fact') you then followed with verses from Romans 8, which use 'if' several times. I agree they are all consequential upon faith.

warriorforgod had quoted Gal 5:17 without naming the verse, which is why I referred to 5:16 on walking in the Spirit [i]in order[/i] (condition) to [u]not[/u] fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

warriorforgod's question is about whether there is a difference between 'our old man' and 'the flesh'. You seem to be saying you don't believe there is. But, since I [u]do[/u] believe that there is (a difference) perhaps we don't completely agree on the [i]dynamics[/i] of how life in Christ works. For, 'if' we walk in the Spirit, [i]not[/i] fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, this is a point of agreement between us; nevertheless, there are those who believe they are doomed never to have true victory over sin in this life.

I did not imply 'the flesh' stops sinning [i]automatically[/i] (that is, without the person's co-operation), as if its [u]ability[/u] to sin has been switched off instantly. But, I [u]do believe[/u] it is essential to stop certain sins immediately upon salvation - depending upon the manifestation of sin in the unbeliever's life.

For instance, the testimony of a very angry woman who came to the Lord was 'I couldn't be angry even when I tried'. This is how she [u]knew[/u] Jesus had changed her; but this might not be the testimony of someone whose biggest problem had been smoking cannabis, (for instance), who now could give up both weed and tobacco. Do you see what I mean?

As a Christian keeps walking in the Spirit, I believe there are battles to be won over both past sins and present temptations, and each time we recognise something as sin [i]to us personally[/i], the challenge is to stop [i]doing[/i] that as soon as possible. This is what Oswald Chambers calls 'continuous conversion', I believe. He explains it better than I, perhaps.

 2008/3/4 16:24









 Re:

Hi Dorcas,

I will have to read this more thoroughly this evening, but did want to say this.

It seems according to scripture either Both flesh and our old man is crucified with Christ

OR

Paul uses these terms interchangeably???

Look at this:
Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I'll respond with more later.

Katy

 2008/3/4 16:32









 Re: The Old man and Flesh...Different?


warriorforgod asked

Quote:
What do you mean by "if we lay hold on this truth?" Does that mean that if we don't lay hold, the "old man" has inspiration?

I simply mean that if we don't believe the old man is dead, we are not going to find him dead in our experience. To me, this is a pivotal point for our faith.

Put another way, if you were a farmer and moved to new premises, and and no-one told you about the all-singing and dancing combine you had in a barn you had not unlocked yet, you might just use the old equipment you had found on the premises already. But, if you knew you had a new machine, you would probably arrange for the old equipment to go to the junkyard.

In spiritual terms, we receive the gospel which has been proclaimed to us. If no-one tells us our old man has been crucified with Christ, we carry on trying to please God by whatever method we know, even if it doesn't seem to bring the desired results. We tend to blame ourselves for not trying hard enough. Not praying enough. Not Bible-reading enough (and so on). When the answer may be that we have to stop all that, and receive a competely new truth about how His life becomes our life. That's what I mean by 'lay hold': believe. (The question is always, then: believe what?)

I believe I already shared from Romans 6:

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of [or, grafted into] his death, we shall be also [i]in the likeness[/i] of [grafted into] [i]his[/i] resurrection:

6 [u]Knowing[/u] this, [u]that our old man is crucified[/u] with [i]him[/i], that the body of sin might be destroyed, [u]that henceforth we should [b]not serve sin[/b][/u].


[b]Knowing[/b] = intimately acquainted with

In this case, being intimately acquainted with the truth that our old man has been crucified with Christ, we also [u]know[/u] the reason for this is that, 'henceforth we shoud not [i]serve[/i] sin'.

Quote:
Please clarify what you mean by "factually, not theoretically" and what is the difference between these two and "principle."

What I was trying to say is that Christ really did put our old man to death, but people treat that truth in their thinking, like it's a theory not a fact. I was trying to [i]exclude[/i] the idea that the principle - or, working dynamic - by which we are crucified with Christ, is in any way [i]merely[/i] a theory.

 2008/3/4 16:49





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