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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Jesus and his teaching accentuate the end of all killing!!!!

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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
can we say it is ok to kill people in the right circumstance? there are times when taking another humans life will not be accountable before God as sin?



Law enforcement and civil protection.

The deeper issue here is that some Christians believe all human government is an affront to God, simply because the state bears a sword that is more lethal then mere metaphor. The graduate student's theory of harmless innocuous law enforcement and state protection sounds wonderful, until you factor human evil into the equation. Scripture is explicit and grave regarding the reality of man's natural beastly disposition; rapacious and lawless without threat of force. Perhaps God is less of an anarchist then some of us dare believe.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/3/5 14:25Profile









 Re:

Friends, I don't see why when we come to a disagreement that we should pull out 'extremes'.

I haven't met a "Christian" non-resistant that endorses anarchism.

Yes, there are those extreme groups out there that call themselves "Christian Patriots" and the "Identity" groups - Arian Nations - Etc. --- but not HERE.

This is a personal conviction of some of us to be non-resistant.

The "Christian Patriots" plan to fight to keep their guns should we lose our "right to bear arms" should the Bill of "Rights" be annulled through martial law etc.
This is WRONG!

Might does not make right.

If there are those among us, as there was in our Church's History, who do not believe in bearing arms or retaliation - must we group them in with Extremists?

Just my thoughts and heart being one of "them" who just will not bear arms or seek retaliation.

Bless you all.

 2008/3/5 14:54
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
Law enforcement and civil protection.




Yes, I can agree and believe so.


I dont believe in pacifism or anarchy, not the other way also. I believe this one can be tricky , we have scripture that explain the rulers and their authority .

But Rom 13:4 was probably meaning Nero, who was a murderer and persecutor. God used that for his own purpose and glory. I dont think it means Christian followers should join in on it.

I am very doubtful a Christian should seek a position where there are a great chance he have to kill someone.



I listened to some sermons, read some stuff, from both sides. Both have some good arguments and scriptures. But i still cant see how we can love some one while we kill them.



_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/3/5 15:14Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

i have wondered this kind of stuff as well. i have wondered why Jesus sent his diciples in luke 10 with no money bag or sack, but then in luke 22 He tells them to bring a money bag, sack and to carry a sword. if they didn't have one, He tells them to sell their garment and buy one. Why did He tell them to buy a sword? (luke 22:38) He tells His disciples to buy and carry a sword, but for what? if He never wanted nor expected them to use it, then why did He command them to have one? i don't know that answer, nor do i have any secret motive regarding this issue because i have no answer.

just putting some questions out there for thought.

phil

 2008/3/5 16:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I listened to some sermons, read some stuff, from both sides. Both have some good arguments and scriptures. But i still cant see how we can love some one while we kill them.



Because taking a persons life in warfare, whether it be in defense of your country, or to stamp out evil (as in WWII), it is not the same as murder. Murder is about self... about benefitting me.

Putting yourself in harms way to protect other people is not about self... in fact, it is the most selfless thing one can do.

Thats the difference.

You make it sound as if soldiers love war and killing. While there may be a twisted soul who gets off on it out of every 50,000 ... the rest do not.

Krispy

 2008/3/5 17:07









 Re:

Brother Krispy, one thing besides us being Christians, both living in a great state - that we have in common is that we're Veterans.

You and pastorfrin and me and others are, though of course I didn't see combat, though was in during the Viet Nam era.

Brother, you're the third person I spoke to when I joined here and felt that unity so please understand that this is difficult for me to post.

Your signature presently is -
________________
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry 1775"
________________

When I just now saw it, after reading your post, I got fearful because of all I've heard on the radio.

Brother, if we, as a country, should lose our "freedom/liberty" before the Lord "raptures" us - what will you do ?

I suppose that stays in my mind at this time of my life for many reasons and not just because of you or your signature, but for all "Christians" and not even just in this country of ours.

Any of these countries - even who presently don't have "liberty".
What should or can they do?

 2008/3/5 17:23









 Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
i have wondered this kind of stuff as well. i have wondered why Jesus sent his diciples in luke 10 with no money bag or sack, but then in luke 22 He tells them to bring a money bag, sack and to carry a sword. if they didn't have one, He tells them to sell their garment and buy one. Why did He tell them to buy a sword? (luke 22:38) He tells His disciples to buy and carry a sword, but for what? if He never wanted nor expected them to use it, then why did He command them to have one? i don't know that answer, nor do i have any secret motive regarding this issue because i have no answer.

just putting some questions out there for thought.

phil

Hi Phil

I'm not sure if this is helpful but it seems the kind of sword meant here was a dagger for cutting up food, or for defending oneself against an enemy. Most people would carry one, especially on a journey.

According to Strong's:

[color=0000]"1 a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh. 2 a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword. 2a curved sword, for a cutting stroke. 2b a straight sword, for thrusting"[/color]

Apparently Roman soldiers would carry one of these and also the other larger weapon.

Maybe Jesus was implying that when He was not with them they might have to defend themselves against those who were trying to kill them?

 2008/3/5 17:53
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Phil

I'm not sure if this is helpful but it seems the kind of sword meant here was a dagger for cutting up food, or for defending oneself against an enemy. Most people would carry one, especially on a journey.

According to Strong's:

"1 a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh. 2 a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword. 2a curved sword, for a cutting stroke. 2b a straight sword, for thrusting"

Apparently Roman soldiers would carry one of these and also the other larger weapon.

Maybe Jesus was implying that when He was not with them they might have to defend themselves against those who were trying to kill them?

that's exactly what i'm talking about. we hear some say pacifism and not to ever defend themselves, yet Jesus told commanded them to buy a sword and carry one. that's why i am wondering about this out loud. it's worthless for Him to tell them to buy one and carry one if He never expected them to ever have to use it. yetm He doesn't want us to muder or kill anyone, so why the command?? to protect oneself?? one's family?? why??

i understand that when it came to one's faith and martyrdom, Jesus tolf peter to put away His sword, but what about in defense of your family being jumped or mugged from robbers or worse killers? what about that?

these are the questions that i have no answer for and can honestly see both sides. i just know me and if it came to my friends and family, i would do all i that i can to protect them. but in cases of martyrdom, i would not deny Christ to protect them. that is where i am right now, but i do not know all of these things or have the answers to the very questions i am raising.

phil

 2008/3/5 18:08Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Annie

Quote:
I haven't met a "Christian" non-resistant that endorses anarchism.



Fair enough Annie! My prickly comment was extreme, but not unwarranted entirely.

It is also extreme to impose a unilateral pacifist code of conduct upon all local and national governments, and the Christians serving dutifully within these government roles, via a sweeping misapplication of the sermon on the mount. When it comes to personal affront, the Christian turns the other cheek. However, in the case of government, when it comes to evil, the government bears it's sword, not it's cheek...or it's throat.

My father served as a guard in a state penn, as then retired as a country sheriff. He uses much of his retirement time now to minister in nursing homes around the area...he is not a violent man. But his years in the department demonstrated to me that even a peaceful man must be willing to forcibly confront evil within a lawful and moral authority structure. I do not understand how even pacifistic Christians denounce this basic societal necessity so vehemently.

War is atrocious evil, and capital punishment is grievous. I do not know the half of it. I cannot and will not argue with Christians who abstain from it. Indeed, the world is sick with so much death. Peace and life should be the desire of every Christian. However, there must be law and order within nations until Christ returns...and this sometimes require lethal power. This is not an excuse for abuse of power, or a blind servile patriotism even during cruel despotism...but only a recognition of a principle that is supported at least within Romans, if not elsewhere in the New Testament.

(edit:
Quote:
I am very doubtful a Christian should seek a position where there are a great chance he have to kill someone.

Brother, I personally empathize with you here, but also realize this might mean different things to different people.)

I'll let this go. I am thankful to have been able to join such a sensitive discussion with such honorable brothers and sisters.

MC



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Mike Compton

 2008/3/5 19:14Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4527


 Re:

Hi Krispy…

Quote:

Because taking a persons life in warfare, whether it be in defense of your country, or to stamp out evil (as in WWII), it is not the same as murder. Murder is about self... about benefitting me.

Putting yourself in harms way to protect other people is not about self... in fact, it is the most selfless thing one can do.

Thats the difference.

You make it sound as if soldiers love war and killing. While there may be a twisted soul who gets off on it out of every 50,000 ... the rest do not.


Very interesting thought.

I read the testimony of a man who lost his wife and entire family in the holocaust. When asked if he appreciated the military forces that liberated his camp, his reply was interesting. He said, “[i]I would have been more thankful had the world chosen to do something about this earlier. Perhaps the lives of my family and of millions of others would have been saved[/i].” I’ve thought about this for quite a while. What would have happened if EVERYONE felt the way of the pacifists? The entire world would be ruled in tyranny. Perhaps this is what prompted Brother Wurmbrand to rip the microphone out of the hand of some anti-war activist in Berkeley during the 1960s. Perhaps they were too quick to point to the terrors of war to realize the lives that would be saved as a result of stopping the communist aggression.

Earlier, someone mentioned the atom bomb that was dropped upon Japan. Yes, it is a tragedy to realize that nearly 120,000 people lost their lives in an instant, with many more that died slow deaths over the years. But the American President and military leaders realized this. They chose to drop an atomic bomb in order to SAVE lives. A long lasting war would have caused the deaths of millions (both Americans and Japanese).

I’ve long wondered what a pacifist would expect of our nation in case of attack. Were we supposed to “turn the other cheek” in regard to the attack on Pearl Harbor? What if a nation would attempt to conquer this nation? Are we supposed to sit back and let the invading army in? Post war intelligence has shown that the Nazis were already plotting to conquer the entire world.

There is, of course, the separation between pacifists and “Christian non-resistance” folk. Some argue that believers should leave such conflicts to the heathen. But do we have any sort of responsibility to our families, children and neighbors? Are we satisfied to sit back and enjoy the benefits of our nation (freedoms, etc…) without contributing anything to it? Are we supposed to be “freedom moochers?” If this nation faced an immediate threat from takeover – are we simply to sit back and watch? If an armed terrorist were to walk into our homes and threaten to kill our children or wife – do we just watch? Don’t we have an obligation to even give our lives in order to save others? It would be a terrible shepherd who would sit back and watch his sheep get eaten by a bear or lion. In my opinion, it is a terrible husband who would sit back and watch his wife and children get slaughtered by a violent intruder.

I have no problem with those who conscientiously object to what they feel is “killing.” If they cannot serve their wife, children, family, neighbors or countrymen in a capacity that might cause them to shed blood, then they should refrain from doing so. But do they have a right to complain about those who sacrifice themselves for their legal ability to complain?

My dad served in Vietnam. He was still a kid when he found out that he was being drafted into the military. Yet he served his family willingly – when so many others escaped. He never fired a weapon, but worked in electronics in dangerous circumstances. Upon his arrival back to the United States in the 1970s, he discovered the ridiculous anti-war crowd spitting at the returning military men and calling them “baby killers.” My dad told me that he simply felt sorry for people who never realized that their freedom to protest was paid for by the blood of those who were willing to die for such a privilege.

To this day, he views his service in Vietnam as bittersweet. He regrets that the US caved in to the anti-war crowd (spurred by the media) who constantly cried for an end to the war. He feels that we, as a free people, let down the people of South Vietnam. The South Vietnamese have faced terrible circumstance ever since. Yet my dad still believes that the US accomplished the overall mission. Communist aggression in southeastern Asia was halted. Vietnam was the last nation conquered by the communists.

I’ve noticed that those who are the most opposed to Christian involvement in the decisions of a nation (such as voting) are often the most vocal critics of the nation itself. Some have even become virtual gossips about the affairs of the nation – talking about how “dark” the days have become. In my opinion, a person loses their credibility to publicly complain about such things if they aren’t willing to step up and prevent such things.

I know that this is a harsh assessment of the matter, but it is just something that I have felt for a while. I love my pacifist and Christian non-resistance brethren. But I also hope that they would respect those who simply disagree with their convictions on the matter. Some of us feel that we have valid spiritual and Scriptural grounds to stand on too.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/3/5 19:34Profile





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