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Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Yes brother! In heaven we will all speak the same language (swedish :-P).

have you read greek as well?

Sincerely Magnus


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2008/3/2 17:04Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Quote: Chris wrote

No one?

The Jews who were rescued from concentration camps might argue that they benefited from the outcome of World War II. Former slaves might argue that they benefited from the outcome of the Civil War. Americans might argue that they benefited from the outcome of the Revolutionary War. South Koreans might argue that they benefited from the Korean War. Israelis might argue that they benefited from the Six Day War. Kuwaitis might argue that they benefited from the first War in Iraq.

Who benefited from a lack of participation in war? The North Vietnamese communists who quickly conquered South Vietnam following the pull out of US troops. The Germans during both WW1 and WW2 before US participation. The Soviet Empire before the US voiced opposition to Soviet communist aggression. Al Quaeda enjoyed growth during the 1990s when little was done to stop the growth of their terrorist organization.

Ok! Sure I agree with you. I also realize that I was thoughtless when I wrote "noone". Surely a lot of unsaved people and nations as well got a better world to go to hell from. And a lot of Christians had a better world to preach the gospel in and likwise send converted people into heaven;-).

Im not either against the struggle for democracy or freedom in the field of world politics. However God in his infinite wisdom brings about such a justice in the world through the providence i.e. by means of using unsaved (and in some cases believers who should have known better) people and nations to carry out His will in wars. Just as Rom 13 says.

My point is that we as Christians should not take any part in the above - but instead concentrate our efforts to show the world a different kingdom - a foretaste of Jesus own kingdom which He is about to bring into the world (in futurum). From that perspective no Christian benefits from war while it goes against the will of our Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

I personally believe that a true Christian cannot kill anyone, since everyone is a potential brother or sister. As long as you live - as long as time consists - repentance is possible. We should not exclude anyone from that possibility or should we?

Sincerely Magnus
:-D


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2008/3/2 17:56Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Eddie wrote:
"Why is America hated in the world? Our government knows but is unwilling to offend other western governments by calling them welfare dependants who depended on us for protection for all the last century. Granted we received strategic benefit. Now that the threat of the Soviet Union has passed for the moment we are despised and belittled in our efforts to defend our selves and others by those that take a holier than tho attitude while their young people shirk their duty and scoff at our young men and women sacrifice. Europe has thrown out the basic laws that underpins civilization that say if you harm one of us then you have harmed us all. The strong will defend the weak and the helpless and our God judge between us".

Im not too sure that your analysis is correct. I have listened to americans who, beyond doubt, have a sound and critical outlook regarding their nation. I can not see any such thing in your overestimation of american foreign policy (such as the conflicts in Asia during the 60s as Vietnam, and how about CIA:s involvement in South America, or the bombings of Iraq because of supposed evidence of nuclear production:- this just, to name a few, I can open my history books and give a lot more examples). It is always refreshing regarding humbleness to consider that America in part was taken from the Native Indians. Just to remind you: The pilgrims did not enter a landmass that was so to speak empty. The wealth and construction of America initially, as you might remember was establish by the institution of slavery!!!! Let's not go into field of domestic politics - in which the american capitalistic (Babel-like)holistic idea rules at the expense of the weaker and less fortunate. Concerning the domestic politics I can go about forever to show the undgodliness.

Regarding Europe, I pretty much agree with you. I have never - and probably we have not (since well let's say the world rule of Britain) been acting as "the worlds conscience". This is still the role or part that US plays and it provokes a larger amount of nations - even nations that US consider to share a lot of values with.

Sure Europe is thankful for US last minute unselfish contribution in the war (or was it Pearl Harbour that finally made US enter). Sure Japan is thankful for the A-bomb. The war, we have to remember could not been won without all the allied forces together (includning Sovjet).

However one thing still remains: I consider myself to be a Christian, not a swede, not a european, not to much connected to my nation - but connected to my Christian family world-wide.
My country is the world-wide Church, and that Church are livning by the Masters Word. Our Master has taught us not to retaliate - but to love and show the world a different Kingdom.

May God help us all.
Magnus
:-o


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2008/3/3 6:50Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

a interesting view


[url=http://downloads2.sermonindex.us/15/SID15424.mp3]Nonresistance—The Theology of Martyrdom by Dean Taylor[/url]


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/3/3 6:56Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Tjenare min svenske broder! Skall läsa länken omgående. Jag såg att du spenderat tid med anabaptismen - intressant. Det finns en enorm sprängkraft i denna teologi. Min docent på universitetet Arne Rasmusson är som jag förstår det just anabaptist och dessutom rätt radikal.
Hans doktorsavhandling heter "Church as Polis" (har dock inte läst den).

Fortsätt din vandring som du har börjat den,
din broder Magnus
:-D


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2008/3/3 7:13Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Hallå broder :-)

länken är till en predikan av dean taylor, som är just anabaptist, från charity ministries i Amerika. Och det är väl deras synpunkt som speglas där. Intresant är det iaf, och personligen lutar jag nog åt deras tolknings sätt i denna fråga. Boken jag läst nyligen är Carl Kilsmos "Den Tredje Reformationen" och var mkt bra och intresant.

ska leta fram Arne Rasmussons avhandling och bita in i den , tack för tipset

Guds frid och nåd!

Christian


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/3/3 7:41Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi Magnus…

Quote:

However one thing still remains: I consider myself to be a Christian, not a swede, not a european, not to much connected to my nation - but connected to my Christian family world-wide.
My country is the world-wide Church, and that Church are livning by the Masters Word. Our Master has taught us not to retaliate - but to love and show the world a different Kingdom.


This is wonderful, but it denies your earthly citizenship. Becoming a Christian doesn’t mean that we are forced to renounce our earthly citizenship. You are still a Swede. I am still an American. But first and foremost, we are believers. My faith in Christ takes preeminence over any secondary citizenship. However, my earthly citizenship remains intact. For instance, I am a Christian and a musician. My music, however, is influenced and dictated by my relationship with Christ. However, I didn’t renounce music after meeting the Lord – although I did count [i]all things[/i] as loss and dung compared to the knowledge of Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:8). Does that make sense? Likewise, Paul did not renounce his citizenship. Consider Acts 22:27: “[i]Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea[/i].”
Quote:
Im not either against the struggle for democracy or freedom in the field of world politics. However God in his infinite wisdom brings about such a justice in the world through the providence i.e. by means of using unsaved (and in some cases believers who should have known better) people and nations to carry out His will in wars. Just as Rom 13 says.

My point is that we as Christians should not take any part in the above - but instead concentrate our efforts to show the world a different kingdom - a foretaste of Jesus own kingdom which He is about to bring into the world (in futurum). From that perspective no Christian benefits from war while it goes against the will of our Master and Lord Jesus Christ.


This is a sincere thing to say, except you also said this:
Quote:

Im not too sure that your analysis is correct. I have listened to americans who, beyond doubt, have a sound and critical outlook regarding their nation. I can not see any such thing in your overestimation of american foreign policy (such as the conflicts in Asia during the 60s as Vietnam, and how about CIA:s involvement in South America, or the bombings of Iraq because of supposed evidence of nuclear production:- this just, to name a few, I can open my history books and give a lot more examples). It is always refreshing regarding humbleness to consider that America in part was taken from the Native Indians. Just to remind you: The pilgrims did not enter a landmass that was so to speak empty. The wealth and construction of America initially, as you might remember was establish by the institution of slavery!!!! Let's not go into field of domestic politics - in which the american capitalistic (Babel-like)holistic idea rules at the expense of the weaker and less fortunate. Concerning the domestic politics I can go about forever to show the undgodliness.

Regarding Europe, I pretty much agree with you. I have never - and probably we have not (since well let's say the world rule of Britain) been acting as "the worlds conscience". This is still the role or part that US plays and it provokes a larger amount of nations - even nations that US consider to share a lot of values with.

Sure Europe is thankful for US last minute unselfish contribution in the war (or was it Pearl Harbour that finally made US enter). Sure Japan is thankful for the A-bomb. The war, we have to remember could not been won without all the allied forces together (includning Sovjet).


For a person who doesn’t want to get involved with such things, do you see how such commentary adds fuel to the fire of political discussion? You have just become a vocal critic of America’s foreign and domestic policies from a very questionable perspective. If someone were to counter such statements, they would be dismissed as someone who "defends the political system." I’m not going to comment on what fallacies that I perceive from your commentary. However, I might wonder how you can mention your opinions when you said that “[i]we as Christians should not take any part[/i].” By voicing such criticism, you have taken part.

I have read very carefully some of the words written by various believers who decry the involvement of Christians in the legislative systems of this world. Some would claim that it is unbiblical to join the military. Others go so far as to claim that voting is the result of “kneeling to the Government idol.” I am often reminded of Paul’s use of the Roman political system in order to avoid a flogging and “appeal unto Caesar” – just to take the Gospel unto Rome. In addition, I consider what the outcome of this nation would be if the Christians just withdrew. What would happen if believers stopped voting, influencing the legislature or proclaiming righteousness to a government “of the people, by the people and for the people?”

Who would be pleased by a lack of involvement by believers in the voting process? Abortionists would be thrilled. Gay activists would be thrilled. Pagan religions would be thrilled. Peddlers of pornography would be thrilled. Atheists would be thrilled. Those who endeavor to remove any semblance of faith from the public or government would be thrilled. Some Islamic nations would be thrilled (since the “Evangelicals” are often the loudest pro-Israel segment of the electorate). It makes me wonder if Satan is also interested in the non-involvement of believers.

For all of America’s flaws, it is still a wonderful place to live. I’ve traveled throughout the world, and I am always pleased to return. This nation is certainly flawed. But America is far different than what is often portrayed via the media (news, movies and television). Although you claimed that “the american capitalistic (Babel-like) holistic idea rules at the expense of the weaker and less fortunate,” I am struck by the fact that so many “weaker and less fortunate” still see America as a land of opportunity. That is why we have millions of people coming into this nation illegally every year. An open market allows people to have the opportunity to provide for their families – which is completely Scriptural (I Timothy 5:8).

I suppose that it is difficult to juggle the difference between acceptable governmental involvement and a Christian sort of patriotism. Can a believer be a soldier? Should a believer vote? Should a believer become involved in a political process (from a city engineer to the President of the United States)? Should a believer even use the political/legal system to advance the Gospel? I’ve read the Scriptures more times than I can count. I’ve read the writings that attempt to decry any such involvement. While I understand the hesitancy for such involvement, I have never found a clear prohibition in the Word of God. In fact, I tend to believe that, as a husband, son, brother and future father, I believe that I should do whatever I can to ensure what is best for my family.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/3/3 11:36Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Well Chris, you're conjoining two different discussions one with you and the other with Eddie. In the last case I tried to answer the evident lack of self-critic concerning one's nation.

However, Im still not being inconsistent. I am against (on valid new testament grounds, primarily the teachings of Jesus Christ) war, killing, capital punishment and so forth ...

Im also following the teaching of my Master, which includes paying taxes. Likewise the former indicates voting and participation in society. I do not put into question the teachings of new testament.

It is impossible not to be political in todays high-technological and globalized world; because everything you say or do has political repercussions one way or the other.

As a Christian you are not forbidden to have certain views concerning our nation or other countries especially if it is ungodly (read Revelation, and you will se a lot of political references to Rome).

The question we have to ask ourselves is how far our participation should go. Should such involvement imply killing in the name of your country?

Sincerely Magnus :-o


_________________
Magnus Nordlund

 2008/3/3 12:33Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Jesus and his teaching accentuate the end of all killing!!!!

Reply to Mangan

You are right to question the correctiveness of political decisions regardless of the country. Hind sight clearly shows glaring examples of failures in past foreign policy decisions of the U.S. and maybe one of the ones you cited could have been such a failure, but that is not the question.

I am not a respecter of persons but I respect the service and sacrifice of all that serve the weak and the innocent. I find ample opportunity in the NT for our Lord to have rebuked those that bore arms but choose not too.

Matt.8:5-13
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Lk.7:1-10.
1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this, for he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.
Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

Matt.27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Many question whether America motive is service to civilization or are we an evil country? Are Christians who serve their country and bear arms and work in life and death situations evil? I say no to both.

Eddie


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Eddie

 2008/3/4 19:56Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Also because I respect dear PastorFrin very much, and hate the thought of disagreeing with him!



I think he would be the first to dissuade you from feeling such a compulsion. :-)

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/3/4 20:59Profile





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