| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | I've been watching this thread for a few days now.
A couple things here come to mind.
Back in Tozer's Day, religious movies were not accurate with scripture.
With that , unfortunately many who never read their Bibles take the movies as accurate accounts. I've always found myself deeply disappointed after watching one. Oh it may have a moral theme, but was that the purpose.
If taking accurate Biblical Accounts and adding extra-Biblical content.....what was the purpose ????? Entertainment, deception, a world view???
Then we come to Passion of the Christ.
I found it most interesting that God??? had to wait until our society became so depraved in censurship etc, that the R Rating for graphic violence is somewhat acceptable ...in order to bring us The Passion of the Christ......not to mention it's extra-biblical content......
Those of you who have seen it...do you see Jim Cazelle's face when you pray, confusing him with Jesus Christ?
I haven't seen or did I want to see this film, as the Lord convicted me right from the beginning not to go see it.
I found a book, written by one of the Marketers of the Film...100 questions asked about the Passion...explaining all the extra-biblical content...and it's based on Catholic Mythology. WOW!
That little book was an Eye opener.
But one question I do ask those who have seen it
Do you see Jim Cazelle's face when you pray.....I get the strangest look, and ALL I ever asked have said YES.
At least in the Robe, they knew not to show the face of Jesus with an actor. Also in Ben Hurr,( The Author by the way, became a Christian in doing research for his novel, and re-wrote the book) didn't show the face of Jesus with an actor.
The Bible says, Faith comes by HEARING...not seeing.
So, with that, I too have a problem with Religious Movies.
Katy
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|  2008/3/1 12:30 | | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
The Bible says, Faith comes by HEARING...not seeing.
This is true. However, God has certainly used 'visual' means of revealing himself to man.
Was it Luther that said that the "ears are the [u]only[/u] organs of a Christian"? This concept does not take into account the printed page as the primary means that the word of God has been distributed in the last 300-400 years.
Can we say that faith comes by "reading" - reading the word of God. the reality is- faith comes when God quickens the word of God to our heart. hearing is not just with the ear- but hearing is in the sense of comprehending and responding to what was communicated.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/3/1 13:28 | Profile | PreachParsly
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| | Re: | | Quote:
The Bible says, Faith comes by HEARING...not seeing.
I just had a thought. If faith can only come by literally hearing with your ear, then a deaf person can't have faith. right?
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2008/3/1 13:34 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Chris's: Is this article saying that all religious films are wrong and, in effect, evil?
I believe it can only be understood to condemn the Theater all together. Consider this quote:
Quote:
Indeed, history will show that no spiritual advance, no revival, no upsurge of spiritual life has ever been associated with acting in any form. The Holy Spirit never honors pretense.
These are the kind of unnecessary 'stretches' that good and wise men make to make a point. Einstein's oscillating universe is a case in point. Public speaking beyond mere lecturing in a monotone voice or reading from pre-prepared notes can be said to be 'acting'. If public speaking does not include drama then it is dead talk.
The Holy Spirit is said not to honor pretense. I would argue that the Holy Spirit will anoint an individual to speak in a way that is far and beyond his/her personal ability and experience. If my intellect and ability are all that are driving my discussions of a Spirit filled life then indeed it is pretense. But when God is back of the man and has birthed and anointed the words, then surely God has made Himself known among us.
I believe God can, has and will empower people to dramatize the message of the Gospel or some other important message in certain situations.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/3/1 13:47 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I just had a thought. If faith can only come by literally hearing with your ear, then a deaf person can't have faith. right?
There are several deaf people on my wifes side of the family. Her brother is 100% deaf. She learned to 'sign' to him from a child. There is a lot of drama involved in signing. It is how a person communicates emotion. They have no way to 'soften' their answers, so their hand gestures and facial expressions (all visual) communicate not just the words, but the emotions of the expressions.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/3/1 13:52 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | The more I think on this subject I wonder of I have been guilty in the past of worshipping preaching itself. I truly wonder if I have spited God in my love for the oratory. Could I have better communicated a message to a people not keen on listening to drawn out lessons and messages? Have I idolized with some self love a talent to speak? The Greeks did that stuff. Did Paul really just rely on words? then what shall we make of this?
[color=000066](1 Corinthians 2:4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:[/color]
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/3/1 13:57 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
I just had a thought. If faith can only come by literally hearing with your ear, then a deaf person can't have faith. right?
I was thinking more along the lines of: We walk by faith not by sight.
Also, when Thomas said he wouldn't believe until he saw, Jesus did show him His wounds, but softly rebuked, stating ...blessed are those who don't see but believe.
My Words are Spirit and they are life, would demonstrate the Power spoken of RobertW was referring to.
Certainly all of our senses activate emotion...yet we are not saved by emotion, obey by emotion, or do anything by our emotions, but an act of our will in spite of emotion.
God isn't entertaining our emotions, but deals with the heart.
We believe with our Heart as Romans 10:9&10 state.
Many Jews SAW miracles of Jesus yet were not moved by the HEART in believing Jesus was the Son od God.
So Faith comes by hearing is a heart issue, not a human ear or eye issue.
Just some thoughts.
Katy |
| | 2008/3/1 14:55 | | HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179
| | Re: | | Is it possible that the things of the world that we put with the Word is like sowing the seeds of tares amongst the wheat? |
| | 2008/3/1 15:08 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Is it possible that the things of the world that we put with the Word is like sowing the seeds of tares amongst the wheat?
Revelation 3:17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, [u]and blind [/u], and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear;[u] and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[/u]
[i][color=006600] Do they sell this eyesalve at movie theatres before watching a religious movie in place of popcorn? [/color][/i]
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
[i][color=006600]Do you audibly hear Jesus voice or visibly see Jesus standing at your front door? Again, we are talking about the HEART...receiving Jesus Christ into your HEART. [/color][/i]
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[u][b]22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/b][/u]
We know we can't audibly hear the Holy Spirit, or visibly see the Holy Spirit.
So heartsong, Yes, we are using worldly means to do what only God IN HIS POWER can do.
Katy
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| | 2008/3/1 15:26 | | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi Katy-did
I am not referring to the film [i]The Passion of the Christ[/i]. I must confess that I [u]did[/u] watch the film. I must also admit that I was emotionally moved during the film. But I must also admit that I watched the film with complete and honest scrutiny. But this thread isnt about [i]The Passion of the Christ[/i], [i]Ben Hur[/i], [i]The Robe[/i] or any of the films that are obviously biased with Catholic or other counterfeit doctrines. We are talking about a question of whether or not [u]every[/u] religious film is evil.
Quote:
The Bible says, Faith comes by HEARING...not seeing.
I know many people who hear the Word every Sunday and Wednesday night but lack real faith in Christ. This isnt attack on our ritualistic services (where often, there is far more commentary than a true reading of the Word of God). But why does faith come by hearing? Is it because there is a supernatural connection between our hearts and ears? Does it have anything to do with the fact that few people were literate enough to read and write during the first century? Few people owned scrolls and even fewer could read them. Jews traveled each week to synagogues in order to hear the Word read by those rabbis who could read it and learn it through memorization.
Quote:
For teaching the facts of physical science the motion picture has been useful. The public schools have used it successfully to teach health habits to children. The army employed it to speed up instruction during war. That it has been of real service within its limited field is freely acknowledged here.
While I share the same feelings toward religious films that are meant as substitutes for the quiet contemplation that comes from reading or hearing the Word of the Lord, I am hesitant to embrace an absolute prejudice against all religious films. What if a film was simply a dramatization of one of the Gospels (with nothing added or taken from the Word)? This is, from what I understand, the intention of the Jesus Film Project. It was a dramatization of the Book of Luke. Can a religious film result in religious education? Can it be a form of audio/visual Sunday School?
While faith comes by hearing are there some things that can be seen that can provoke an increase in our faith? Are not the eyes the windows of the soul? My faith is strengthened every time I walk through nature. I notice the clouds, the trees, the blue skies, and the stars. They speak of the magnificence of God. Likewise, are not parables and sermon illustrations a form of visualization? While we do not see such things with physical eyes, we do see them with our minds.
Please understand that I am not taking a position one way or the other. I just feel that there is cause to caution against making such broad absolutes. Like I said before, I feel that we too often lay the axe at the leaves and branches than at the root of such issues. Tozer, in his logic includes each of the following in his rationale for his position:
Quote:
1. It violates the scriptural law of hearing.
2. The religious movie embodies the mischievous notion that religion is, or can be made, a form of entertainment.
3. The religious movie is a menace to true religion because it embodies acting, a violation of sincerity.
4. They who present the gospel movie owe it to the public to give biblical authority for their act: and this they have not done.
5. God has ordained four methods only by which Truth shall prevail---and the religious movie is not one of them.
6. The religious movie is out of harmony with the whole spirit of the Scriptures and contrary to the mood of true Godliness.
7. I am against the religious movie because of the harmful effect upon everyone associated with it.
In regard to these points, I understand [i]why[/i] Tozer is coming to his position. But do these points apply absolutely to everything? Ive already pointed out that a film like the [i]Jesus Film Project[/i] does not violate the scriptural law of hearing. In fact, Im not quite certain that there is a [i]scriptural law of hearing[/i] to begin with. I dont know that anyone is arguing that such films are meant to be a form of entertainment (Point 2). Acting is often considered a violation of sincerity (Point 3). But is it always the case? Do people alter their voices when they read the Word of God to their children to help distinguish between narration, or various individuals of dialogue? Most religious films that I have read actually cite the Biblical authority for their presentation (Point 4). In the case of the [i]Jesus Film Project[/i], they offer a good citation of the source (in that case, the Gospel of Luke). Points 5 and 6 seem to be more the opinion of Brother Tozer than a spiritual absolute.
I suppose that the greatest danger with religious films is with Tozers 7th point. Most religious films are created with at least some sort of conjunction with the people and industries of this world. Actors, directors, writers, cameramen, etc
-- they are typically employed in endeavors to produce religious films. This raises the question of unction that is often felt is needed for such projects. Are films [i]tainted[/i] by the world even if the motives are pure?
Quote:
Bacon has said something to the effect that there are some professions of such nature that the more skillfully a man can work at them the worse man he is. That perfectly describes the profession of acting. Stepping out of our own character for any reason is always dangerous, and may be fatal to the soul. However innocent his intentions, a man who assumes a false character has betrayed his own soul and has deeply injured something sacred within him.
This is profound and thought provoking. Yet I find it interesting that Brother Tozer would have actually read the words of Bacon. Sir Francis Bacon was a literary genius (if such a thing exists). He wrote fiction, non-fiction and, per chance, [i]dramas[/i].
In the end, I just feel that a little hesitation should be used when making such absolutes. If someone wanted to, they could make the same sort of claims as Tozer made about things like the Internet. Yet here we are. If one was transparent enough, there would be someone somewhere who would point the finger of absolute sinfulness at us. Ive had people point the finger at me for driving a Ford Escape because Ford was created by Henry Ford who sympathized with fascism and eugenics. I imagine that if someone was meticulous enough, they would point the finger even at the Amish attempt at holiness.
:-)
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Christopher
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| | 2008/3/1 17:20 | Profile |
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