Poster | Thread | RobertW Member

Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Hi Clint,
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And btw I have been in a church that used whatever means to reach the lost... but to be quite honest I have yet to see anyone last that was not reached in the old-fashioned way, that is the preaching of the Gospel.
I believe also (as a point of clarification) that the Gospel must be preached. Not just preached, but preached rightly. Not just preached rightly, but preached with unction. Drama is never an end in itself. I believe it can be useful for the ministry.
Preaching without power and truth is just as worthless as a worthless entertaining drama. So i believe it is the content of the message and the Spirit of God making it effectual in the hearts and minds of people that they by revelation in this media saturated age will see the Gospel in "their language." (as it were)
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2008/2/29 18:21 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Hello brethren,
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While we may use a picture of something to get everyone to "see" the same thing, it seems to me that Holy Spirit uses one word to get many people to see different things - things that would apply specifically to them individually. If we add pictures or graphics to His words are we not actually blocking information that He is putting forth? Directing others to "see" things as we "see" them, rather than trusting the He we tell them what He wants them to know?
I think this is an excellent observation; it's certainly a thought that warrants some good consideration. Have you ever wondered why, in non-liturgical Protestant churches, there is a noticeable absence of crosses, icons, frescos, murials, stained-glass images, paintings of Christ, etc.? Have you wondered why it is that most mature, born-again Christians (I speak here with trepidation, praying this will be understood correctly) do not wear crosses around their necks or dangle them from the rearview mirrors in their cars? Why they do not have paintings of Jesus in their homes, or golden icons on the wall bathing in the flickering light of sanctimonious candles? Why the utter absence of [i]images[/i]?
I say [i]non-liturgical[/i] churches, because if you walk into a liturgical church you'll quickly see that [i]imagery[/i] dominates. You see statues, candles, stations of the cross, crucifixes, frescos of lambs and cherubs. Go into some of the baroque and rococco Mexican churches and you'll see some spooky effigies of impaled saints (some of the wooden statues are actually wearing wigs) and horrible, bloody depictions of Jesus. Well, where did all this religious imagery originally come from? Who hosted the first passion play? Who scheduled the very fist bogus reenactment of the crucifixion? Surely not the original apostolic church. They were too busy actually [i]living it[/i] to have time to write a screenplay about it.
Who was the first man to put on a wig and dare portray Jesus Christ publically, and react the most holy event in all of history as a staged performance? Am I thinking too lofty to dare ask this question, too [i]holy[/i] for my own good to criticize such an undertaking? I propose here that the original idea for these religious images, dramas, passion plays, re-enactments did not come from the same Spirit that drove Paul and Timothy and James and John and Peter; I propose that such was a result of a spiritual degeneration that gradually occured over time; Jesus Christ no longer dwelling purely in the hearts of men by faith, He must now be [i]externalized[/i] through icons, crosses, replicas, effigies, stage performances, etc.
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Scripture as we have the printed page is a 'picture' of words.
Yes, brother. Words conjure images, but the images are tailor-made depending on our past association to the word in question. I can say the word "Golgotha" and someone might see a skull. Another person might see a cross on a hill but no skull at all. These pictures, I mean to say, are all relative - and I don't think this a bad thing. However, when I impose my own visual imagery upon others - using the written Word of God as a backdrop - I can usurp the role of the Holy Spirit and burn my own interpretation into the conscience of the beholder. I believe this is the Holy Spirit's job, and not ours...though God may use our interpretation as a gateway into His own realm of influence.
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Lecturing is not necessarily the highest for of preaching.
I don't know if I can agree with this, brother. I believe the spoken Word is the highest, most pure way, hands down. It is the proclamatory form we see demonstrated exclusively in the Bible, asseverated by the very words of Paul, we see no dramas, no staged performances, no fashioning of imagery; in fact, God tells us [i]not[/i] to make any such depiction of heavenly things...and I take that to mean liberal art-wise as well. But, of course we do, and just say "I've been lead to write a drama" or cast so-and-so from our church as Jesus (Fred looks like Jesus - he's got the beard and long hair and blue eyes and everything else!) Well, if you ask me, Fred is a carciature, and I am offended. I am offended that we don't take the Eternal Son of God, the Holy King of Glory more seriously and with fear and trembling. I've seen dramas with the stupid "dancing Jesus" beating up demons; I've seen dramas where Jesus is depicted as a fawning, obsequious lover. And you look around at all the people crying, the music is tender, and their souls are touched.
After the perfomance, though, what do we see? These same people who were crying, are they now repenting and changing by the power of God? Very, very few, if you are honest. They go back to their normal condition once the soul regains its optimal temperature and life goes on at the same miserable rate. Everything is the same, except for the testimony: "Wow! That was really an [i]awesome[/i] drama!" or "Wow! That Mel Gibson's Passion movie was [i]powerful![/i] I cried and cried and cried..."
Well, whatever happened to apostolic preaching that radically changes men [i]without[/i] the besmudging fingerprints of man's intellectual and earthly artistic capacity? Why, dear brethren, do we feel the insatiable need to help God's message seem more culturally relevant by adding our own intellectual spices, our artistic adornments, and psychological bells and whistles? If you ask me, this website is a perfect demonstration of the efficacy of God's preached Word of old [i]without[/i] using modern drama and hip musical embellishments and programs and jarring screenplays as crutches.
Brother Paul
(edit) I am speaking at this point of evangelism, and not the edification and discipling of those already saved. _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/2/29 20:31 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
They give their 'evidence' that such a practice is not only unbilical, but it is Pagan in origin. They vent their contempt for sermons. That's right, sermons. This is Tozer's viewpoint taken to it's ultimate conclusion. When taken to it's ultimate extreme- it drags him down into the same pit. Because where there is a Tozer crying foul for the theatre, there is a Viola that is crying foul of Tozer's preaching sermons, any sermon at all.
Well, my answer to this objection is simply that Tozer is right and Viola is wrong.
:-P
Seriously, most discerning Christians even vaguely familiar with the Word of God can counter the so-called pagan inception of the sermon by a simple reference to Matthew 7. To shoot down Tozer, however, one would require a "Drama on the Mount" which I'm still looking for...and I don't see Paul doing a mime or a phony crucifixion reenactment on Mars Hill either. The foolishness of preaching, brother. In the midst of intellectual giants, cultural titans, philosophical wizards, surrounded by the artistic masters of prose, theatre, politics, and engineering, I have a hard time imagining Paul consulting a Greek playwright to make the "crucifixion story" more palpable to Greek culture. It wouldn't be [i]foolishness[/i] anymore; it would be the enculturation of the gospel by virture of man's wisdom.
_________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/2/29 21:40 | Profile | mamaluk Member

Joined: 2006/6/12 Posts: 524
| Re: | | Quote:
"Emotions are deceitful" - this truth cannot be highlighted enough. I also cried when I saw E.T. and I always cry when they shoot King Kong off the building.
:)
This thread is quite a bit of "fresh air" for me. I remember when my kids were young, I approached my "pastor" with my concern of Sunday School movies..Valentine "jesus"..that sort of material, I was told that I was being too extreme, and how "God" can use anything to preach the gospel..while others thought I was being too critical. However,they didn't succeed in changing my view/conviction.
Reading all of your thoughts and views here has really blessed me with a great sense of "like-mindedness". Brother Robert, I couldn't agree with you more as well.
Especially in light of rearing children towards God.I think that it is rather important to introduce The Lord as a solemn and holy Being, reverence should precede entertainment. Children, however small, should be taught that rather than seeing The Lord as some animated character, in one minute, He's portraited as some effeminate cartoon character, the next minute, He almost resembles Snow White...A loving God does not have to be, and must not be viewed as some goofy-looking or nice-looking image before the eyes of our children.
By saturated young minds with pictures, movies and false images will only defeat the purpose of teaching them the basic Truth, GOD is Spirit. To undermine the unction and power of the Holy Spirit Himself in witnessing Christ and The Father to our children, is in a way, I think, short changing both God's glory and our children's inate ability to receive this important Truth. Spiritual Truth is to be received by our spirit, not our flesh.
Sir Robert Anderson, in his book written many many years ago about the reverence of God's Name points out that, before long, our children would treat The Lord as nothing more but Donald Duck..just one of those characters on the entertainment media. Beware, the lust of the eyes, I gather, will only reap corruption in the end. For children or adults alike.
In Christ, thanks brethren. mamaluk
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| 2008/2/29 23:45 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
Sir Robert Anderson, in his book written many many years ago about the reverence of God's Name points out that, before long, our children would treat The Lord as nothing more but Donald Duck..just one of those characters on the entertainment media.
I'm going to get clobbered here, but how about as a bunch of talking, adventure-seeking vegetables? I can show you Puritan children's prayers from 300 years ago that would drop you to your knees in exaltation of God, prayers that are so rich in depth and devotion and reverence. Prayers that reference hell, grace, death, judgment, sin, love, and the cleansing blood of Christ. This was way before multimedia and talking salads.
Please understand that I am not one to always brood over the past and wish for the former days - for such is not wise - but when I do happen to walk into a Christian book store and see some of the goofy stuff geared for youth groups and children's church nowadays, I shake my head in bewilderment. I can do this because I know the capacity children have in terms of spirituality, in terms of knowing God, and they can hold much more than what we give them credit for. They can pray with understanding and anointing, and they can know God as the Holy Father He is without being taught by a talking brocoli dressed up like a pirate. But who will teach them?
You have to first know God as holy and marvellous yourself if you are to teach a child the same with a special anointing for them to understand, and it is much easier to turn on a DVD than it is to do the other. _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/3/1 0:07 | Profile | crsschk Member

Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 9192 Santa Clara, CA
| Re: On Worship and Entertainment | | Thought I would add some excerpts of excerpts if you will from;
[i]A.W. Tozer on Worship and Entertainment[/i]
[u]From the Foward;[/u]
"The explosive material to which I refer consists of the long-out of-print Tozer essay, [b][i]The Menace of the Religious Movie[/i][/b]. Some of my editorial colleagues have given to me the honorable privilege of defending A.W. Tozers radicality. They ask, Is Tozer `off the wall on this one? Maybe, but I still think we need this Tozer, especially since religious movies are passé, since television has become so pervasive and since evangelicals are now attending the secular movie venues by the millions.
A.W. Tozer needs to have his say. Ever since the New Testament writers used play actors for the word that is translated [i]hypocrites[/i], there has been a tension between every form of drama and the Christian message. Through the centuries the struggle has been ongoing between the Christian Church and the passions of weaker believers for pageants and spectacles.
That is why the final essay in this book is a tiger of sorts.
If Tozer was correct, and I argue that he may well have been, then by republishing this essay I have turned the tiger loose. If this tiger proves toothless and old and no longer relevant, he will die a natural death. But if this tiger finds prey, sinks his fangs into errant Christians and raises uproars which change evangelical behavior toward godliness and holiness, then I am happy hes loose."
K. Neill Foster
[u]The Preface;[/u]
Toward the end of his ministry Dr. A.W. Tozer commented that the war was lost, referring to the atrocious invasion of the world into the church. He objected to anemic Christianity. In many churches, Tozer complained, Christianity has been watered down until the solution is so weak that if it were poison it would not hurt anyone, and if it were medicine it would not cure anyone!
A radical statement, but reading this book will clarify just what Tozer meant.
Here in one volume is a collection of Tozers thoughts on the vitally important subject of worship and its corruption by what he referred to as the great god Entertainment. I have culled from my extensive library of some 500 tape-recordings of Tozer preaching to his Chicago congregation, camp meetings, conventions, his denominations General Council and his last years at the Avenue Road Church in Toronto. One thing I noticed from his sermons was the consistency of his convictions on this subject. The year might be 1954 or 1962 but there was a harmony of thought. His were not mere off-the-cuff remarks.
At the end of this book is the essay [b][i]The Menace of the Religious Movie,[/i][/b] which cost Tozer some friends. It has long been out of print and not many are anxious to bring it to light. However, following the logic of his conviction he does make sense. You may not agree, but you will recognize that he knows what he believes and why he believes it.
Sometimes a preacher can get carried away in his preaching and say things he really does not believe. This was never the case with Tozer. Throughout this book you will notice that the excerpts from his messages and they are verbatim are quite similar to what he allows in print.
The extensiveness of the quotations precludes any accusations of unscrupulous editing. After reading this book, you will have a clear picture of Tozers convictions on these subjects. Again, you may not agree, but it should give you something to think about considering the decadent condition of the contemporary church.
The only hope for modern Christianity, Tozer contends, is in the individual. In this vein he speaks and writes, always on the lookout for people to join his Fellowship of the Burning Heart. If one person would come into the light by his preaching or writing that was reward enough for Dr. Tozer."
Rev. James L. Snyder
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[b]Entertainment Is a Symptom[/b]
This is the cause of a very serious breakdown in modern evangelicalism. The idea of cultivation and exercise, so dear to the saints of old, has now no place in our total religious picture. It is too slow, too common. We now demand glamour and fast flowing dramatic action. A generation of Christians reared among push buttons and automatic machines is impatient of slower and less direct methods of reaching their goals. We have been trying to apply machine-age methods to our relations with God. We read our chapter, have our short devotions and rush away, hoping to make up for our deep inward bankruptcy by attending another gospel meeting or listening to another thrilling story told by a religious adventurer lately returned from afar.
The tragic results of this spirit are all about us: shallow loves, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externalities, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personality for the power of the Spirit. These and such as these are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul. ([i]The Pursuit of God[/i], pp. 62-63)
_________________ Mike Balog
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| 2008/3/1 8:53 | Profile | RobertW Member

Joined: 2004/2/12 Posts: 4636 St. Joseph, Missouri
| Re: | | Just as a point of reference let me restate my basic position that I do not believe that drama will replace preaching or is 'superior' to preaching and teaching. I believe drama is profitable for the ministry in certain circumstances and to certain audiences. No means is any better than the person employing them and no means (preaching, teaching, tracts, drama, theater, etc.) are of any value without the direction and unction of God.
My original argument was that theater is [i]not[/i] a 'menace' to the Church any more than any other abusable means or new measure. Preaching is greatly abused in our times. The solution to abuse is not non-use it is [i]right[/i] use.
Moreover, I would argue in the power of images just as we see them on this website. It is not theater, but it is media. It helps draw attention to the subject- repentance and revival. Personally, I would hate to come to this website and see only 'text'. Again, my point in not to overstate my defense of the use of theater and media. I have said that it can be profitable to the ministry. It has represented less that 1/2 of 1% of ministry that I have been associated with. I do not believe that theater and drama in and of themselves are a menace to the ministry. I have seen God move, [i]not in spite[/i] of the drama or theater (as would be the case with God using drugs, alcohol, secular music, etc.) but within it- very much in the same was as preaching or teaching.
Preaching does not convert everyone. People walk away from sermons on repentance every day. Even anointed sermons where there is heavy conviction. It is a perplexing reality. I have watched folk week after week walk away from street ministry and street preaching. The same can be said of all forms of preaching.
In closing on this post let me say (speaking as a fool) that in my circles I am in reputation for being every anti-movie house. Very resistive of sports and other activities that folk try to promote within the churches. I am very no-nonsense. It has made me quite unpopular overall. and yet from my vantage point I look to the one side and see a generation pressing for a lot of things that in the measure they seek them would likely destroy them. I look to the other side and see a people that view the very means of communication, learning and culture being considered a menace so as not to utilize them at all. I lament the fact that an unwillingness to make any real concession has created a great gulf affixed between the messengers and the hearers. If we continue to refuse to speak to a generation in their own 'language' what are we any different than the holy, sanctified, religious priesthood that held the church captive to Jerome's Latin Vulgate bible from 405 until the days of John Wycliff? If the language of the people would some day rest on a media drama type form; would we decry it unbiblical for a Wycliff or a Tyndale to rise up and speak to them on their level? Just a question that comes often to mind. Because in many cases we are already very much out of touch with how youth communicate today.
_________________ Robert Wurtz II
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| 2008/3/1 9:09 | Profile | PaulWest Member

Joined: 2006/6/28 Posts: 3405 Dallas, Texas
| Re: | | Quote:
In closing on this post let me say (speaking as a fool) that in my circles I am in reputation for being every anti-movie house. Very resistive of sports and other activities that folk try to promote within the churches. I am very no-nonsense. It has made me quite unpopular overall.
Dear brother Robert,
I think both of us agree on way more than we realize, with the barrier of writing our thoughts down and the internet hampering perhaps a more lucid understanding between us. In any case, I've never doubted your heart for God, your discernment, your wisdom and outstanding character. I thank God that we can discuss a topic as potentially rift-causing as this one with great maturity and love and respect. I've seen people tear each other's eyes out over movies and music and how art should relate to Christianity.
How wonderful it is to express one's thoughts without fear of angry reprisals. I repeat: I know we are in agreement over much of what we're discussing, much more more than is what is immediately apparent by reading our posts. My spirit bears witness to this, dear brother, and this is all I can say.
Brother Paul _________________ Paul Frederick West
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| 2008/3/1 9:25 | Profile | mamaluk Member

Joined: 2006/6/12 Posts: 524
| Re: | | Quote:
The tragic results of this spirit are all about us: shallow loves, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externalities, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personality for the power of the Spirit. These and such as these are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul. (The Pursuit of God, pp. 62-63
Ah, now it all comes back, it was this book The Pursuit of God that the Lord used to open my eyes a long while ago and to convict my own shallowness and hollowness of love and spirit. Not only that, I fell into deep despair.
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Toward the end of his ministry Dr. A.W. Tozer commented that the war was lost, referring to the atrocious invasion of the world into the church.
Was this war lost? It seems so on the surface,but how can God lose? This is His war! For His remnant/children, He has always been faithful in delivering them from all sorts of evil. We find this under Crsschk's signature:
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.. let the LORD do that which is good in his sight. 1Ch 19:13
Surely The Lord [i]is[/i] and [i]will[/i] do that which is good in His sight. All this is good, this menace, assault to His reverence, this rebellion, reserved for His judgment, as in the days of old. Those who persistently create menace to the glory of Christ in our midst might very well be the enemies of Christ, rather than part of His.
"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
"Wherefore [b]come out[/b] from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord...."
In Christ, mamaluk
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| 2008/3/1 10:49 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss Member

Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 4779
| Re: | | Hello
Is this article saying that [i]all[/i] religious films are wrong and, in effect, evil? What would Tozer have thought about the Jesus Film Project? It is the most watched film in the history of the world having been shown in 228 nations and in over a thousand languages. While one might ask where all of the true converts are after having been shown around the world there is a book entitled [i]Ive Just Seen Jesus[/i] that includes accounts of heart-stirring conversions and miracles as a result of this film. Would this also fall under Tozers warning? It is, after all, a [i]religious[/i] film.
It is my opinion that it would be far more helpful to swing at the root than at the leaves. What is the root behind Tozers warning? Is it the films themselves? Or is it a branch of a much larger variety of sin? What is the purpose of a religious film? Is it to entertain? Is it to make money? Is it due to the fact that this generation (including much of the Church) has such a small attention span? Is it because religious films require acting (pretending)? Is it because it is a time waster in a day where time is short? Is it all of the above?
In my opinion, there are things that can be just as deplorable time-wasters as religious films. The Internet, by far, is the greatest time-waster in the world today. I have known individuals who literally spend several hours online every single day. While most believers tend to limit their online use to beneficial things (such as online Bibles and SermonIndex forums), some also use the Internet as a tool for learning or reference. Yes, the Internet is literally FILLED with obvious filth (such as pornography, lies, violence and nearly every other thing that can fall under the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. But there is still some good. The important thing is that we recognize the difference between the two.
Are [i]all[/i] films bad? Film is just made of transparent celluloid and acetate coated with chemicals (usually). Today, film can be found in the form of pixels. There is nothing sinful about such material. It is in the intention and use of this material that makes it sinful. But remember, the same points that are made in this article can be applied to other forms of media, such as the Internet, music, paintings, etc
Are all of these things [i]absolutely[/i] evil in and of themselves? Can nothing good come from them? Is money bad since the love of it is the root of all kinds of evil?
SermonIndex is a fine example of how the Lord can take three types of medium (the Internet, audio and visual recordings) that are undoubtedly dangerous and sinful in most forms and, in turn, be used to bring about Gods glory. Yes, the vast majority of what is found on the Internet is pornographic, sensual, ungodly time-wasting material. But a true believer shouldnt waste his time on such things. Just as Brother Ravenhill told Dave Wilkerson that he knew where the knob on his television is, we know where the knob is in our minds. We dont have to burn down the house where drugs or prostitution was sold. It is just a house. We simply need to have the drugs and prostitution moved from the house itself, or otherwise avoid that particular house.
My point is this: Wouldnt it be more beneficial to simply turn our focus upon the root of sin rather than by declaring absolutes in regard to such questionable output?
:-(
As crazy as it might sound, I have seen the finger pointed at the Internet as a whole with some believers questioning what business a "ministry" has to be on a medium that is so "obviously sinful." _________________ Christopher
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| 2008/3/1 11:00 | Profile |
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