| Poster | Thread | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Brother, this is an excellent Finney article, and I'm fully sympathetic of the contents he presents, though I have trouble finding a spiritual common ground between the issues Finney brings and those Tozer is asserting
This is because Finney died in the late 1800's and could only speak to the history of the Church in its implementation of new measures and innovative means up to his death. I know great men of God that can trace the history of 'change' from the 1930's until today and the pattern is the same. No instruments in the church. No amplification. No singing with a background tape. All these things at one time were "of the devil" and 'evil'.
Every generation has to battle the folk who want to maintain what they believe is a biblical approach to ministry. This is a commendable attitude, but what Finney shows is that God did not give us a real approach to how we present the Gospel.
If you get a chance to read [i]Pagan Christianity[/i] by Frank Viola and George Barna you will see that there are men that would and do censor Wesley, Finney, and others because they preach sermons. That's right, preaching is Pagan. They give their 'evidence' that such a practice is not only unbilical, but it is Pagan in origin. They vent their contempt for sermons. That's right, sermons. This is Tozer's viewpoint taken to it's ultimate conclusion. When taken to it's ultimate extreme- it drags him down into the same pit. Because where there is a Tozer crying foul for the theatre, there is a Viola that is crying foul of Tozer's preaching sermons, any sermon at all. So on and so forth until we are all shards and ruins.
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Robert Wurtz II
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|  2008/2/29 14:13 | Profile | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | I pray we can all work through this in the right spirit and with the mind of Christ. With that being said, let me thank brother Kire for enhancing our discussion with the Kenaston article (which I've never seen). A few points stuck out which I could readily identify with. I, too, was on the bandwagon of promoting Mel Gibson's "Passion" when it came out. A few brothers and myself even stood on the street corner and offered tracts to people leaving the movie house after viewing it.
Well, I saw it. Twice. And, of course, wept during the scourging: It was a powerful, soul-throttling experience. In fact, the college girl next to me was weeping also, and so was the guy behind me.
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The movie is packed full of emotions, but has very little conviction which comes as the Spirit of God convicts people of their need of repentance. Many people come out of the theaters weeping, but remember, they do the same thing with every other touching movie. [b]Emotions are deceitful[/b]
"Emotions are deceitful" - this truth cannot be highlighted enough. I also cried when I saw E.T. and I always cry when they shoot King Kong off the building. This may infuriate some people here, but I solemnly believe that fake Hollywood movies like the "Passion" and many of our church dramas do more damage than good. For every one person who may genuinely come to God through them, there are one hundred others who are assured of a false security by virtue of their emotional experience, equating, in essence, tears to salvation. The "Passion" movie brought much tears but no repentance because it was not birthed in a soul-hot womb, as many dramas and religious spectacles in our Western, persecutionless church are. They are seasonal; put into production during the Christmas and Easter seasons by default without much tears in the making. Note, when I say "soul-hot" I don't mean screaming, ranting, prancing, hankerchief-fluttering hellfire and brimstone; I mean the result of ministers saturated in prayer and in God's Word and living clean, holy lives before the Lord and fellow man. For the bulk of these dramas, the words are there, the wigs, the fake robes and penciled-in facial hair, the fake cross with fake blood with a fake christ festooned on it - and with a little help from some dramatic music, people begin weeping like they weep listening to a religious Country-Western song about having "Jesus in the heart" and little puppy dogs going to heaven. I'm being overly dramatic here, and painting with broad strokes to get my point across, so please forgive me.
What comes from the soul easily produces tears, for tears are the outward result of an inner emotional conflict; but what comes from the Spirit of God produces genuine repentance unto holiness and a death to this world. The death here is immediate, though the [i]revelation[/i] that you have died to it is progressive, gradual, and in God's timing. If you are soundly saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and immersed in God's Word and thirsting in prayer...there soon comes the day where such things that before had a great glow of godliness and practibilty begin to dim and gradually become engulfed by the simple "foolishness of preaching" alone with no training wheels, flotation devices, or candy wrappings necessary.
At least, this has been my experience, and the experience of many a reputable minister of grace.
Brother Paul
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/2/29 14:28 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Some of A.W. Tozer's concepts on Theater to consider:
Quote:
Surely it requires no genius to see that the Bible rules out pictures and dramatics as media for bringing faith and life to the human soul.
This is impossible. Scripture as we have the printed page is a 'picture' of words. They are not the very words themselves. This is no different than an unrealistic emphasis on 'hearing' the word of God- as if 'reading' is not the same as 'hearing'.
Dramatics is found in the pulpit of many preachers. Billy Sunday was one of the most dramatic preachers ever. I personally believe that when God anoints a person to minister He will bring the word to life through them. They are the vessel He will use. This often looks like 'acting' but it is not in that sense. God can anoint a person to demonstrate a truth even if the person is not in or has ever been in that situation. It is a tremendously important aspect of communication. Lecturing is not necessarily the highest for of preaching.
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The plain fact is that no vital spiritual truth can be expressed by a picture. Actually all any picture can do is to recall to mind some truth already learned through the familiar medium of the spoken or written word. Religious instruction and words are bound together by a living cord and cannot be separated without fatal loss. The Spirit Himself, teaching soundlessly within the heart, makes use of ideas previously received into the mind by means of words.
I do not agree with this at all. God brings to our remembrance all sorts of things to bring [i]revelation[/i] to our heart. God can teach you spiritual truth through a trial in your life. Information is not revelation. Words are essential to that. Pictures and memories of experiances can aid in God bringing a revelation to bear upon our hearts. The false assumption here is that it must be 'either' words or pictures. I affirm that it can be [u]both[/u] words and pictures, and drama, and theatre, or whatever else God desires to bring to bear upon our minds to give us [i]revelation[/i] of Himself. As a preacher and teacher who loves to preach and teach and write... I can say with certainty that God frequently brings more to bear upon mankind than simple words. A picture, as the old adage says, can be worth a thousand words. Images are powerful. This is how the enemy has snarred the masses. Why? They often have a much more lasting effect upon the mind than teachings or words.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/2/29 14:39 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Dear Robert,
Since Finney has been brought up, we should also note that he penned another article on "Amusements" which is also a good, balanced read and offers an interesting counterpart to the article you posted.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/2/29 14:44 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Paul,
Quote:
I pray we can all work through this in the right spirit and with the mind of Christ.
Just so everyone knows, I love all you guys and gals and by no means am offended at our differences, etc. I hope to be received also with charity and as one that has found mercy. :-) I have a tendency to write my thoughts down a little too straight at times, please bear with me. I may need my helmet before this is all over... :-P
God Bless,
Robert
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/2/29 14:54 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Hey, good brother, I wrote that as a reminder for myself! I constantly try to keep myself in check, clear my mind of any biased thoughts, angry impulses, prideful seeds. I'll address your legitimate Tozer concerns in a few hours; I'm about to take a practice test here at the college, got to strap the helmet on also.
:-)
Wonderful blessings upon you and your precious wife in Jesus' Name!
Brother Paul
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/2/29 14:58 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: Fishing for Fun is Sin? | | Quote:
Since Finney has been brought up, we should also note that he penned another article on "Amusements" which is also a good, balanced read and offers an interesting counterpart to the article you posted.
Yes, I have been involved in some pretty hairy threads over some of Finney's and Wesley's views on fun and pleasure, etc. But, I think they were sincere and loved God. I pulled an excerpt from Finney to give folk an idea of the 'extremism' I am referring to.
Innocent Amusements Excerpt
C.G. Finney
That none but benevolent amusements can be innocent. Fishing and shooting for amusement are not innocent. We may fish and hunt for the same reason that we are allowed to eat and drink--to supply nature with aliment, that we may be strong in the service of God. We may hunt to destroy noxious animals, for the glory of God and the interests of his kingdom. But fishing and hunting to gratify a passion for these sports is not innocent. Again, no amusement can be innocent that involves the squandering of precious time, that might be better employed to the glory of God and the good of man. Life is short. Time is precious. We have but one life to live. Much is to be done. The world is in darkness. A world of sinners are to be enlightened, and, if possible, saved. We are required to work while the day lasteth. Our commission and work require dispatch. No time is to be lost. If our hearts are right, our work is pleasant. If rightly performed, it affords the highest enjoyment and is itself the highest amusement. No turning aside for amusement can be innocent that involves any unnecessary loss of time. No man that realizes the greatness of the work to be done and loves to do it can turn aside for any amusement involving an unnecessary waste of time. Again, no amusement can be innocent that involves an unnecessary expenditure of the Lord's money. All our time and all our money are the Lord's. We are the Lord's. We may innocently use both time and money to promote the Lord's interests and the highest interests of man, which are the Lord's interests. But we may not innocently use either for our own pleasure and gratification. Expensive journeys for our own pleasure and amusement, and not indulged in with a single eye to the glory of God, are not innocent amusements, but sinful. Again, in the light of the above rule of judgment, we see that no form of amusement is lawful for an unconverted sinner. Nothing in him is innocent. While he remains impenitent and unbelieving, does not love God and his neighbor according to God's command, there is for him no innocent employment or amusement; all is sin.
I wonder if there is a single person on SI that will agree with this excerpt without reservation? It is a perfect recipe for burnout. ;-)
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/2/29 15:03 | Profile | broclint
Member
Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA
| | Re: | | Brethren,
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and the goodhearted and yet sincere comments seeking for balance on both "sides?" of the discussion.
Just for a look at what at one time was considered a very conservative church pastored by the late Adrian Rodgers, I just found this article and thought it quite amusing that it came out at this time... for what it is worth you can read what Bellvue is doing [url=http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=68705]now.[/url]
And btw I have been in a church that used whatever means to reach the lost... but to be quite honest I have yet to see anyone last that was not reached in the old-fashioned way, that is the preaching of the Gospel. Some may be brought through the doors, and that may be good. But if they are saved, it is still the foolishness of preaching that gets the job done... and I am not saying that because anyone is arguing otherwise.
Very good commentary on all sides of the issue... keep it going Paul and Robert for the edification of all :-) .
Clint
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Clint Thornton
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| | 2008/2/29 16:14 | Profile | HeartSong
Member
Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179
| | Re: | | Hi Robert, Here are some thoughts:
Quote:
A picture, as the old adage says, can be worth a thousand words.
This could be a thousand wrong words.
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Images are powerful.
But not more powerful than God.
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This is how the enemy has snarred the "masses.
I AGREE! (I realize I am taking this out of context).
I remember awhile back you wrote a really good article on conscience - about how God uses our conscience to show us things that He wants us to "see". While we may use a picture of something to get everyone to "see" the same thing, it seems to me that Holy Spirit uses one word to get many people to see different things - things that would apply specifically to them individually. If we add pictures or graphics to His words are we not actually blocking information that He is putting forth? Directing others to "see" things as we "see" them, rather than trusting the He we tell them what He wants them to know?
An interesting thing happened when I quit watching television - it was as if words became amplified - a whole new world of word pictures. What was once ordinary conversation become hilarious - or horrifying. It really took some getting used to as sometimes I would burst out laughing or my jaw would drop in horror. Somehow all of the pictures and noise on television is clogging our "receptors" or dulling our senses - so that we are missing the information that God is sending. There is so much static and noise - yet we are surrounded by His purity and peace - but no one seems to see Him . . . |
| | 2008/2/29 17:45 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Somehow all of the pictures and noise on television is clogging our "receptors" or dulling our senses - so that we are missing the information that God is sending.
I think this is true. This is why I don't often watch TV (As Ravenhill would say ;-)). But, while we have stopped watching or slowed down to a small amount the world has continued to be influenced by media. People have a very very short attention span these days and have been conditioned towards media. They no longer have the imaginations in many cases that people once did. Nothing is left to the imaginations- special technologies and special effects dumb down the imagination (in my opinion).
For some years now I have taken a similar very hard nose approach towards teaching and preaching. Almost as if to say that the people will listen my way or I will hair lip the devil getting them to! But I question this attitude. I am watching as a whole generation of people are slipping away and the traditional means of reaching them is not working. The problem is not the message. The message must be the same as it has always been.
What will evangelism look like in the next 50 years? If we say that pictures don't work then what shall we do with modern day Gospel tract ministries? Tracts almost always have some pictures even Ray Comfort's stuff. I think of what Paul said in I Corinthians 9:
[color=000066](1 Corinthians 9:20-23) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by [u]all means[/u] save some. [/color]
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2008/2/29 18:15 | Profile |
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