Poster | Thread | tjservant Member
Joined: 2006/8/25 Posts: 1658 Indiana USA
| Re: | | In order for there to be a choice there must be at least two options
God or
.what? Good or
.What?
Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.
_________________ TJ
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| 2008/2/12 12:08 | Profile | davym Member
Joined: 2007/5/22 Posts: 326
| Re: | | One thought - Christ bore our sin on the cross i.e. all sin is gone as far as God is concerned. As Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world we must remember that this was an eternal sacrifice. What I mean to say is this - at no point in eternity was sin not dealt with. God sees us through His Son, His eternal Son, His sinless Son.
_________________ David
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| 2008/2/12 12:16 | Profile | tjservant Member
Joined: 2006/8/25 Posts: 1658 Indiana USA
| Re: | | Quote:
I don't have any kind of agenda. I am honestly interested in learning more about our Awesome God.
Amen brother, Amen!!!
I too have no agenda outside of learning more about Him. I thank God that He is in control...even when I don't understand. _________________ TJ
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| 2008/2/12 12:18 | Profile | ADisciple Member
Joined: 2007/2/3 Posts: 835 Alberta, Canada
| Re: | | Here is John Calvin's own view on this subject. I'm quoting from his "Institutes," Book I, Ch. 14, Part 16.). (By the way, I am not a Calvinist. In some things I don't think Calvin was seeing from God's perspective. But what he says here is completely scriptural, and true.)
"But as the Devil was created by God, we must remark, that this wickedness which we attribute to his nature, is not from creation, but from corruption. For whatever evil quality he has, he has acquired by his defection and fall. And of this the Scripture apprizes us; lest, believing him to have come from God, just as he now is, we should ascribe to God Himself that which is in direct opposition to Him. For this reason Christ declares, that Satan, 'when he speaketh a lie, speaketh of his own;' and adds the reason-- 'because he abode not in the truth.' When he says that he abode not in the truth, he certainly implies that he had once been in it; and when he calls him the father of a lie, he precludes his imputing to God the depravity of his nature, which originated wholly from himself. Though these things are delivered in a brief and rather obscure manner, yet they are abundantly sufficient to vindicate the majesty of God from every calumny...."
AD
_________________ Allan Halton
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| 2008/2/12 12:26 | Profile | roaringlamb Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: Is God the creator / author of sin? | | I'll play :-D
This is from the Westminster Confession, and I think it deals well with this-
[i]Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.1 [b]This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.[/b]2
1. Gen. iii. 13; 2 Cor. xi. 3. 2. Rom. xi. 32.
By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God,1 and so became dead in sin,2 and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.3
1. Gen. iii. 68; Eccles. vii. 29; Rom. iii. 23. 2. Gen. ii. 17; Eph. ii. 1; [Am. ed. Rom. v. 12]. 3. Tit. i. 15; Gen. vi. 5; Jer. xvii. 9; Rom. iii. 1019.
From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,1 and wholly inclined to all evil,2 do proceed all actual transgressions.3
1. Rom. v. 6; vii. 18; viii. 7; Col. i. 21; [Am. ed. John iii. 6]. 2. Gen. vi. 5; viii. 21; Rom. iii. 1012. 3. James i. 14, 15; Eph. ii. 2, 3; Matt. xv. 19.[/i]
So now we need to step back and understand that NOTHING happens in this world apart from God's allowing it to happen. God knew Satan would fall when He created him, and God knew that Satan would bring sin into mankind.
However, Christ and His crucifiction were part of God's plan before the foundation of the Earth. It is as if in God's mind all of His work was accomplished before anything was created.
If we say that God did not know that Satan would rebel, and bring sin into humanity, then we have an unbiblical god, and this is generally the slippery slope that goes the way of open theism.
We do not have the right to ever judge God based upon our sinful nature. Even we as Christians have a remaining old Adam that corrupts even the most spiritual things we do. So when we come to something like this, we must tread carefully.
Here are three facts that must be reckoned with- 1)God is holy 2)God is omnipotent 3)Sin exists
Better to just accept the fact that God allowed sin to come into the human race, but He is not the cause of it at all, Satan is. _________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2008/2/12 13:17 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
If we say that God did not know that Satan would rebel, and bring sin into humanity, then we have an unbiblical god, and this is generally the slippery slope that goes the way of open theism.
Not really... foreknowledge is quite different from fore-ordain.
Quite often I'll tell one of my kids to do this or that... because it would be the right thing to do... knowing full well that they will not do it because I know their personality so well.
I didnt ordain that my kid will rebel, but I knew it was going to happen.
God gave us a choice to obey or disobey (choose you this day whom you will serve), but understood and knew we would choose the wrong thing.
Krispy |
| 2008/2/12 13:26 | | jgraves11 Member
Joined: 2008/1/26 Posts: 55 Munford, TN
| Re: | | Quote:
I didnt ordain that my kid will rebel, but I knew it was going to happen.
Of course, because you did not create your child, God did. He created Him for His purposes.
I agree though that God cannot be the author of Sin. He is too Holy to look upon, much less create sin. This does not mean that He cannot allow sin to take place. Whoever commits the sin if fully responsible for that sin whether God ordained it or not. _________________ John Graves
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| 2008/2/12 13:38 | Profile | tjservant Member
Joined: 2006/8/25 Posts: 1658 Indiana USA
| Re: | | This is not to anyone in particular.
I need help with this one
not sure I grasp it
clear as mud actually.
Question:
If my dog had been bitten five times by a rattlesnakes because every time he sees one he always messes with it
and I clearly see one out the door
and I, with this knowledge, let my dog outside
I guess it ultimately is the dogs choice
but I knew what he was going to do.
Am I not accountable? I mean it was clearly the dogs choice, but did I not ordain it
knowing in advance what would take place?
If I have true irrefutable knowledge of a tragic event
and the ability to stop it
and dont
I allow it. Yes?
I know this is an extremely poor example
please look past that and help me understand more clearly this fore-knowledge, fore-ordained idea.
Thank you all in advance.
_________________ TJ
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| 2008/2/12 14:04 | Profile | roaringlamb Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 1519 Santa Cruz California
| Re: | | Quote:
Not really... foreknowledge is quite different from fore-ordain.
How so? Usually, the words used for "foreknow" are verbs not nouns, so it is something God is doing and not something God has.
Quote:
God gave us a choice to obey or disobey (choose you this day whom you will serve), but understood and knew we would choose the wrong thing.
That verse you quoted though is not to unbelievers, or in its context to the nations surrounding Israel. It is to God's covenant people who had experienced His revelation and were in rebellion to Him. I know it sounds good to throw out to argue free-will, but that's not what it is describing.
God still remains completely untouched by sin though. He is not the One who is sinning.
Consider for a moment perhaps the greatest sin ever committed in the History of man, the crucifiction of Christ. But what does God say about this in His Word-
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
This was God's plan, to use the sinful acts of men to redeem His people. Did God ordain the crucifiction?
And yes here is where the Greek word for "foreknowledge" is indeed a noun, and it is used twice in the NT, once here, and again in 1 Peter 1:2.
There is also- Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Act 4:28 For [b]to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done[/b].
So, again in the Apostles mind, there was no problem in seeing God's hand in the sinful events of men, while also understanding that God uses what men mean for evil for His glory just as int eh story of Joseph in Genesis. Did God know that Joseph's brothers would sell him into slavery(sin)? But what was the purpose of this, God's glory in fulfilling His promise.
Here is a good verse to ponder while thinking through these issues- Psalms 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: [b]he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.[/b] _________________ patrick heaviside
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| 2008/2/12 14:06 | Profile | jgraves11 Member
Joined: 2008/1/26 Posts: 55 Munford, TN
| Re: | | tj,
I think it is would be best to say that God is not held accountable by the same standards that we are. He created us therefore He can do with us what He wants. I think the best explanation of this mind boggling doctrine is found in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology book. He basically says that even though God ordains things to happen, the person who does those things is still responsible.
For example, Judas Iscariot was responsbile for his betrayal of Christ, but God ordained it did he not? What about Pilot and the jews? Look at Acts 4 down around verse 23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices ptogether to God and said, Sovereign Lord, qwho made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,3 said by the Holy Spirit, r Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? 26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and sthe rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his tAnointed4 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your uholy servant Jesus, vwhom you anointed, both wHerod and xPontius Pilate, along ywith the Gentiles and zthe peoples of Israel, 28 ato do whatever your hand and byour plan had predestined to take place. 29 And now, Lord, clook upon their threats and grant to your servants5 to continue to sp The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ac 4:23-29). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. _________________ John Graves
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| 2008/2/12 14:09 | Profile |
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