SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Access over 100,000+ Sermons from Ancient to Modern
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The law

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 )


My reply to this Katy is ... Your words are disgraceful and hurtful.

Stephen, I apologize that I have offended you. I see you have never heard this before...a long standing of the oldest jokes, not only among Jews but believe it or not...Pastors .

Actually Lenny is my cousin and loves it!!!! He's not offended and you shouldn't be either.

Getting back to something you have on your signature line...

The Torah (תּוֹרָה) is the most important document in Judaism, revered as the inspired word of God, traditionally said to have been revealed to Moses. The Torah, or Law, comprises the first five books of the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. Christian Bibles incorporate the Hebrew Bible into its canon, where it is known as the Old Testament. Though different Christian denominations have slightly different versions of the Old Testament in their Bibles, the five books of Moses (which are also called the Pentateuch or "the Law") are common to them all.

The five books of the Torah are:

Genesis (בראשית, Bereshit: "In the beginning...")
Exodus (שמות, Shemot: "Names")
Leviticus (ויקרא, Vayyiqra: "And he called...")
Numbers (במדבר, Bamidbar: "In the desert/wilderness...")
Deuteronomy (דברים, Devarim: "Words", "Discourses", or "Things")
The Hebrew names are taken from initial words within the first verse of each book. See, for example, Genesis 1:1.

Jews have revered the Torah through the ages, as have Samaritans and Christians. It is traditionally accepted as the literal word of God as told to Moses.

Contents [hide]
1 Title
2 Structure
2.1 Contents
3 Textual history
4 In Judaism
4.1 Authorship tradition
4.2 Production and usage of a Torah scroll
4.3 The Torah as the core of Judaism
4.4 Reverence and Respect
4.5 The divine meaning of individual words and letters
4.6 The Torah and the Oral Law

[The word Torah means "teaching," "instruction," "scribe", or "law" in Hebrew. It is also known as the Five Books of Moses, the Book of Moses, the Law of Moses (Torat Moshe תּוֹרַת־מֹשֶׁה), Sefer Torah in Hebrew (which refers to the scroll cases in which the books were kept), or Pentateuch (from Greek Πεντετεύχως "five rolls or cases").

Other names current in Judaism include Hamisha Humshei Torah (חמשה חומשי תורה, "[the] five fifths/parts [of the] Torah") or simply the Humash (חוּמָשׁ "fifth"). A Sefer Torah is a formal written scroll of the five books, written by a Torah scribe under exceptionally strict requirements. The term is sometimes also used in the general sense to also include both Judaism's written law and oral law, encompassing the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history, including the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Midrash, and more.

A Sefer Torah opened for liturgical use in a synagogue service. The five books contain both a complete and ordered system of laws, particularly the 613 mitzvot (613 distinct "commandments", individually called a mitzvah), as well as a historical description of the beginnings of what came to be known as Judaism. The five books (particularly Genesis, the first part of Exodus, and much of Numbers) are, primarily, a collection of seemingly historical narratives rather than a continuous list of laws; moreover, many of the most important concepts and ideas from the Torah are found here. The book of Deuteronomy is different from the previous books; it consists of Moses' final speeches to the Children of Israel at the end of his life.

Under teh TORAH, only the blood of bulls and goats were sacrificed, never bringing anyone to it perfect. However at Calvary, this law, incomplete in itself was a Complete work at the cross. We are now made PERFECT by HIS Perfect Sacrifice.

This is the Law that HE Fulfilled. You want to bring people back under the OT Law....two entirely different concepts.

You came on here just recently...with one purpose in mind....OT Law keeping.

There are many threads on this subject here, but you started a new one right away.

One of the RULES of SI to my understanding, is that no one come here with their own AGENDA.

But I do apologize for your never hearing this joke before...older then the hills!!!!


 2008/2/12 0:35


Stephen, actually Iam more offended by your misquoting of Romans 3:30& 31.

You have:
"Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)

This is not what the Scriptures say.

Romans 3:30&31 simply state the SINNER establishes the law in it's right use and honor by confessing his guilt and just condemnation.

Christ on the sinners behalf, establishes the Law by obediently keeping it's precepts, who endured it's penalty of death FOR US! He took our wrath and sin upon Himself.

This is why Jesus went to the Cross to begin with.....The LAW and the penalty of breaking the law was not done away....but it was done away IN CHRIST. He fulfilled the penalty of the Law...the Law of sin and death.

The Law SHOWS us our SIN. and the wages of Sin is DEATH. Jesus DIED in our place, that we may have life THROUGH HIM. It is has been fulfilled!!

This IS the Gospel!!!


 2008/2/12 1:00

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada



I don't know whether Stephen will be back to view your apology, but I want to thank you for the grace you've shown in posting it.

That means something to me.

(And I myself had never heard this "inside" joke before. I'm just an ordinary "garden variety" Christian. Which is perfectly fine with me. I don't need some special designation... say, "Messianic Gentile," to cut me above anyone else. He hath broken down the middle wall of partition...)

Regardless, though, I do think we need to be wise, and careful not to offend.

...Actually I think what happened here, if I'm not mistaken, is that some of the, uh, "discussion" ...on the Spurgeon/Sabbath thread-- which I knew nothing about, hadn't even clicked into it till a few minutes ago-- spilled over into this thread.

Anyway, I appreciate your understanding of this whole Torah/Messianic influence that has become such a serious leaven in the church of our day... as it was to the early Church as well.

Makes me feel that "Something" very awesome is up!

And with that ever in view, I hope we all can "be clothed with humility" as we seek to keep our Watch (which I think is the fourth watch of the night).


Allan Halton

 2008/2/12 1:08Profile


Amen Brother AD - you have discerned correctly indeed.

I feel we need to link these threads because they are very much 'connected'.

Besides the Spurgeon-Sabbath thread that you mentioned.

LORD BLESS and protect.

 2008/2/12 1:26

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


One of the RULES of SI to my understanding, is that no one come here with their own AGENDA.

And the irony of it all is how it is lost on even those who ought to know better. There is one question to be asked and that to each and everyone sincerely;

Is it I?

If the behavior here doesn't change, changes will be made.

Another thread locked.

Mike Balog

 2008/2/12 7:28Profile

Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy