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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : the ancient paths

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Won't even touch the difference between "the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" here because the entire "foundation" is off from page one again.

AD said - "Deny the foundation and you are in trouble."

What is that "foundation" ?...

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

You may understand why I posted what I did on the top of page 2 when you come to understand that wildbranch/Sharon does Not believe in the Deity of Christ/that Jesus-The Logos was or is GOD 'ĕlôhîym.

Seems like a better place to start than "which" law who is now under... The Foundation.

 2008/2/9 20:49

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Straw-man

Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant Reformation, referred to the book of James as an "epistle of straw."

[i]First, this quote only appears in Luther's original 1522 Preface to the New Testament. After 1522, all the editions of Luther's Bible dropped the "epistle of straw" comment, along with the entire paragraph that placed value judgments on particular biblical books. It was Luther himself who edited these comments out. For anyone to continue to cite Luther's "epistle of straw" comment against him is to do him an injustice. He saw fit to retract the comment. Subsequent citations of this quote should bear this in mind.

Second, detractors are keen on selectively quoting Luther's preface to James. Most often cited are only those comments that express negativity. If one takes the times to actually read Luther's comments about James, he praises it and considers it a "good book" "because it sets up no doctrine of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God." Rarely have I seen Luther detractors inform a reader Luther praises James, or respects God's law. On the other hand, I have seen many Catholics insist Luther was either morally corrupt or an antinomian. Luther though insists James is worthy of praise because it puts forth Gods law.[/i]

[url=]Six Points On Luther's "Epistle of Straw"[/url]

Mike Balog

 2008/2/9 21:08Profile

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138

 Re: epistle of straw

Thank you for that update on Luther retracting that remark.

Although the link to the article re the 'epistle of straw' does say that subsequent editions of the introduction to James were edited, the final point made was - quote: "Finally, Luther says he cannot include James among his chief books "though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him".

Martin Luther had some other insightful comments to make about some other writings too:

"Concerning the epistle of St. Jude, no one can deny that it is an extract or copy of St. Peter's second epistle…Therefore, although I value this book, it is an epistle that need not be counted among the chief books which are supposed to lay the foundations of faith" (Luther, M. Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, 1546).

Perhaps none of Martin Luther's writings on the Bible are as harsh as what he wrote about "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:1):

"About this book of the Revelation of John...I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic…I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it. Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly-indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important-and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep…My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it" (Luther, M. Preface to the Revelation of St. John, 1522).

As the following quotes show, Martin Luther did not care for several books in the Old Testament either:

"Job spoke not as it stands written in his book, but only had such thoughts. It is merely the argument of a fable. It is probable that Solomon wrote and made this book."…

"Ecclesiastes ought to have been more complete. There is too much incoherent matter in it...Solomon did not, therefore, write this book."…

"The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much..."

"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible." (as quoted in O'Hare, p. 202).

Furthermore, Martin Luther had little use for the first five books of the Old Testament (Torah):

Of the Torah/Pentateuch" he says: "We have no wish either to see or hear Moses" (Ibid, p. 202).

Martin Luther hated the Jews, which may be why he was against Esther, the first five books of the Bible, and other parts of the Hebrew scriptures.

Notice that Martin Luther advised his followers, burn down Jewish schools and synagogues, and to throw pitch and sulphur into the flames; to destroy their homes; to confiscate their ready money in gold and silver; to take from them their sacred books, even the whole Bible; and if that did not help matters, to hunt them of the country like mad dogs (Luther’s Works, vol. Xx, pp. 2230-2632 as quoted in Stoddard JL. Rebuilding a Lost Faith, 1922, p.99).

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch (Martin Luther (1483-1546): On the Jews and Their Lies,

More of Luther's anti-semitism can be read here, as most of it is too vile to rewrite:

 2008/2/9 22:13Profile

Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada



wildbranch wrote:

Dear ADisciple,
Thank you for your input. I think that you have encapsulated the essence of traditional Christianity very well.

Hi again Sharon...

...Just took some time to think this thread through again (your point of view, I mean, and the other responses).

And if by traditional Christianity you mean "the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief corner stone" ...that's exactly where I am coming from. I don't know if I could say it more clearly than I have said it in my two previous posts... perhaps others might be able to.

And, considering the others who have responded to you along the same line... it seems you are getting pretty much a unified message here.

And so I think I will just thank you for the above compliment, and leave it at that.


Allan Halton

 2008/2/9 22:57Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710


Sharon, what do these scriptures mean to you?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 8:1-14 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is born again in you, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father making you a new creature in Christ Jesus? "Behold old things have passed away and behold All things are become new".

Colossians 3:1-11 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/2/9 23:10Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: the ancient paths

Hi again everyone.

This is from the first post, from Sharon

"There is a growing awakening and hunger amongst many today who are being stirred to 'seek after the ancient paths'.

Jer 6: [16] Thus says the LORD:
"Stand by the roads, and look,
and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is; and walk in it,
and find rest for your souls.
But they said, `We will not walk in it.'"

...and find rest for your souls.

The Lord Jesus Christ said

[b][color=660000]Come unto me, all [i]ye[/i] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [/color][/b]

- Matthew 11:28(KJV)

[i]But they said, `We will not walk in it.[/i]

The religous leaders said

"This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day."

"Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."

See John 9.

[b][color=660000]But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this [i]man[/i] to reign over us. [/color][/b]

- Luke 19:14(KJV)

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 23:53Profile

Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752


You may understand why I posted what I did on the top of page 2 when you come to understand that wildbranch/Sharon does Not believe in the Deity of Christ/that Jesus-The Logos was or is GOD 'ĕlôhîym.

Is this true Wildbranch?


 2008/2/10 3:23Profile

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138

 Re: answer for Christiaan

Christiaan asked: Is this true Wildbranch? (re who is Jesus)

I agree with these verses as testified to by the Apostles:

I declare along with Simon Peter, that Yeshua is the Anointed One, the Son of the living God!

[b]Matt 16: 15-17 "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.[/b]

also, my belief is stated quite clearly in the following verses:

[b]John 17: 3 "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".

Luke 1: 32-33 "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."

1 Tim 2: 5-6a: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all"

1 Cor 8: 5-6: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth -- as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" -- yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Acts 4: 10-12: "be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 5: 30-31: "But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Acts 7: 55-56: "But he (Stephen), full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God."

Heb 7:21-22 "...The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, `Thou art a priest for ever.'" This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

Rev 3:14 "The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'.

Rom 1: 3-4 "the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.[/b]


 2008/2/10 14:19Profile

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138

 Re: burden is light

Quote: ChrisJD:

Matt 11: 28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

[b]Amen![/b] lines up beautifully with....

1 John 5:2-5 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. [b]And his commandments are not burdensome.[/b] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?


 2008/2/10 14:21Profile

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138

 Re: lawful to do good on the Sabbath

Chris quote: The religous leaders said "This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day."

The religious leaders of the Scribes and Pharisees had changed ('added to' in this case, instead of 'taking away from') the Laws of God. They had taken away from the true intent of the law and added many extra burdens, condemning Jesus as having broken the law of the Sabbath - but Jesus affirmed that it is [b]lawful to do good on the Sabbath.[/b]

Matthew 12: [8] For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath."
[10] And behold, there was a man with a withered hand. And they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?" so that they might accuse him.
[11] He said to them, "What man of you, if he has one sheep and it falls into a pit on the sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
[12] Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."


 2008/2/10 14:23Profile

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