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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : the ancient paths

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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,

You said



"Later in Isaiah 42:21 we read that concerning the Servant ..."The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness sake, to magnify his law and make it glorious.." note...not make it 'a curse'."


Yes,


The Lord Jesus said



[b][color=660000]Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. [/color][/b]



- Luke 11:52(KJV)



the key of knowledge...



[b][color=000000]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [/color][/b]


- Romans 3:20(KJV)


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 12:52Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Dear Chris

You asked "How about you Sharon?" referring to the verses: quote:
And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
And then
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
To which Peter says
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Chris, I have made it abundantly clear that I [b]agree with Peter and James- that circumcision and Torah observance are NOT REQUIRED for salvation.[/b]

[i]I am not sure why you seem to have deliberately misrepresented my position here?[/i]

Sharon

 2008/2/9 13:20Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

From the verse in the post referred to by Chris:

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Chris, are you saying that ONLY those commandments which Yeshua then goes on to speak about in the next verses are the ones that we should be observing and teaching to others? Those concerning adultery, divorce/remarriage, swearing falsely, not resisting one who is evil, love your enemies, praying in secret, fasting, laying up treasures in heaven, sound eye, two masters, anxiety, hypocritical judging, giving dogs what is holy, etc etc. Are these the ones that you are saying are the LEAST of the commandments? [i]Which are the [b]least[/b] of the commandments?[/i] Maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say?

Jesus finishes up that sermon with the words: .....Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven...On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord', did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work *[b]iniquity.[/b]

[b]*Iniquity:[/b]
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Sharon

 2008/2/9 13:25Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,


Also about Matthew 5:17-18,



The Lord Jesus said to the Jews in John 10:34...






[b][color=660000]Is it not written in your law...[/color][/b]

your law...



Paul says in Romans 4:15 that the law worketh wrath.




The Lord Jesus, speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem said



[b][color=660000] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [/color][/b]


- Luke 21:22(KJV)


He said also there would be great wrath upon them.


See also Deuteronomy 27:15-26, 28:15-68.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 13:28Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,


You said


"Chris, I have made it abundantly clear that I agree with Peter and James- that circumcision and Torah observance are NOT REQUIRED for salvation."


Sharon,

You closed your first post in this topic this way




"Peter warns us not be be carried away by the error of the lawless. He takes care to warn us that the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction the writings of Paul, and that we should be forewarned not to be carried away with the error of such lawless ones, those who oppose the eternal Torah of God, upheld throughout the scriptures, but cast aside by the man of lawlessness."



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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 13:31Profile
wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Chris,

The quotation you gave regarding [i]'your law'[/i] from John 10:34...."Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, "I said, you are gods"?, is a direct quotation from the Psalms.

Psalm 82:6..." I say, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;"

I think Jesus said "your law', because they read from the Psalms and the rest of the OT?

Sharon

 2008/2/9 14:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

"Love never fails"

Love must fail if the Law must be kept to attain salvation and keep salvation.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Jesus fulfilled the Law by His Love for us and going to the Cross. So if Love is the fulfilling of the Law then why do we have to keep the Law of the Old testament? The only law we must Keep is the Law of Love in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

1Jo 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

In This Love, which is in Christ we have the fulfillment of the Word of God.

Here is the differenct and separation of the Old and the New.

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

2Ch 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, [even] in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

Either do the Law and die or do the Law of Love in Christ Jesus and live.

Don't percecute the Lord Jesus by keeping the Law of Old, but live according to the New Law; LOVE.

Look what happened to Paul: Acts 22:1-7 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

The Law kills, but Faith and Love, that is Jesus Christ gives Life.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Let us fulfill the Word of God. Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You cannot get ridd of the promise to Abraham, "IN thy Seed", Jesus is the promise and the Seed.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Hbr 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/2/9 14:35Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Greetings, Sharon.

I just want to add here my witness to the truth that Christians, whether of Jewish or Gentile background, are not under the Law of Moses.

This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

There are many Scriptures that make this abundantly clear (as others have already mentioned).

Here are just a few.

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law but under grace" (Rom. 6.14).

That's pretty clearly said, isn't it. "Not under the law..."

Oh, you mean then, we can sin now because we're not under the law but under grace? That's what Paul was accused of teaching.

No. "God forbid" (6.15).

He's saying exactly the opposite: we are not "under" the law because sin does not rule over us any more. We are "under" GRACE. The dominion and rule of GRACE. Grace is to rule, and over-rule, in our lives, just as sin once did.

And the purpose of the Law then? The Law of Moses will teach you that you are a sinner. But that's as far as it can take you. It can't take you to a higher grade. It can't make you a righteous person. So, you have to fail in the school of the law in order to pass to the school of grace.

And then? "For [b]the grace of God[/b] that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [b]teaching us[/b] that, denying ungodiness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, godly in this present world..." (Titus 2.11,12).

In other words, "the law was our schoolmaster (our teacher) to bring us unto Christ," and the lesson the law teaches us is that we are sinners. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3.20).

Then we come to sit under a new Teacher: the Grace of God, and there is power in Grace to actually teach us, and impart to us, the Righteousness that the law could NOT teach.

This is all about the basic simple difference between the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, which, sadly, is still to this day strange territory to a lot of Christians.

When we say we are not under the law, it doesn't mean we are advocating for lawlessness. Far from it. It simpy means that we are now under a far higher and more powerful Law: the Law of Grace, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Law of Liberty, the Law of Love.

And so when Jesus said He came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it, He meant exactly that. He didn't cast out and do away with the Law: He FULFILLED the Law (Mt. 5.17): and so we walk no longer in the shadow, but in the True Light, in the Very Image of the Law now.

At the Cross He fulfilled the Passover of the Law (1 Cor. 5.7).

In Acts Ch. 2, He fulfilled the Pentecost of the Law.

(And there is much that He will yet fulfill. I'm thinking of the Feast of Tabernacles yet to come.)

He fulfilled the Sabbath of the Law (and will yet fulfill it in His Church, Heb. Ch. 3 and 4).

...And so on. He fulfilled the commandments about not committing murder, or adultery, by not so much as looking upon a woman to commit adultery with her... or to even hate a man, which He calls murder... and these and All the other commandments, He will yet fulfill them in us: in His church...

All this is far, far higher than the Torah of Moses.

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven" (Mt. 5.20).

And... "the law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached..." (Lk. 16.16).

And... "The kingdom of God (not the law of Moses) is righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not [b]the very image[/b]..." (Heb. 10.1).

It's Christ who is "the very image" of the Law.

Jesus Christ is my Law. My Torah is Jesus Christ Himself.

AD




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Allan Halton

 2008/2/9 17:29Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Dear ADisciple,

Thank you for your input. I think that you have encapsulated the essence of traditional Christianity very well.

I would point out, however, that selected verses (mostly from Paul) are used to teach a concept that is not taught when reading the Scripture as a whole. A reminder here again of the warning Peter issued re Paul's writings, which "many twist to their own destruction". Paul actually observed the commandments of God ....

"...For it is not those who hear the Torah who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the Torah who will be declared righteous." (Rom1:13)

"…What advantage then has the Jews? Or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way, chiefly because that unto them were committed the oracles [instruction] of God." (Rom 3:1-2)

"...Since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through the same faith; Do we then abolish the Torah by this faith? By no means, rather we uphold the Torah." (Rom 3:30-31)

"...What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, except by the Torah; for I had not known lust, except the Torah had said; Thous shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)

"…Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Rom 7:12

"…For we know that the Torah is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin." (Rom 7:14

"…For I delight in the Torah of God after the inward man. (Rom 7:22)

The reality of where the church under this teaching stands today, shows (from my point of view), the results of centuries of such liberal Christian thought.

Purporting to be 'under Grace', and declaring that "Jesus fulfilled the law for me", has left the community of Christians in a state of being that is not recognizably different from the world.

You say that, quote: "He FULFILLED the Law (Mt. 5.17): and so we walk no longer in the shadow, but in the True Light, in the Very Image of the Law now." Who does? The Church? I am sorry, but I do not see it. The sins (transgression of the law) of the world are rampant in the church, there is no "Very Image of the Law" shining forth.

While insisting that Christians are now under a far higher and more powerful Law - higher than that which GOD himself declared unto Moses, we do not (mostly) even see the rudiments of the (lower ?) law delivered on Mt Sinai present in the adherents of Christianity. While saying that they are under this 'higher law', things like adultery and other worldly lusts and activities are tolerated and active in the church. No one even blushes. How can this be?

It did not work. While declaring the Law abolished (and not the Punishment, that is the "Handwriting of Ordinances or charges against us"), we have fooled ourselves into believing that we are living a holy lifestyle under Grace.

The Sabbath, the 7th day rest from labours is now 'fulfilled in Christ'. We apparantly now "rest in Christ' all the time. Actually most Christians I meet tend to be a little frazzled! :-) While one should find absolute peace in the knowledge of Jesus, that itself does not replace a Day of Rest, a perpetual sign of the people of God. Yet many will strongly oppose it, and even condemn to hell those who seek to live out the Torah that has now been written on their heart. Not out of obligation, but out of joyous doing because of the delight of walking in His Ways. If one does not know the reality of that, it is perhaps difficult to comprehend.

The 'Kingdom of God' means the Rulership, the Reign of God. His Kingdom has as a foundation the Torah, with Messiah Yeshua as The Cornerstone. His people will be those who have the Torah written on their heart, through the grace and accomplishment of the Messiah. His Kingdom will be one of Righteousness, Peace and Joy, which will come in those who love His ways, and turn not from them, while claiming to be under a far higher law, but are not even walking in the one given at Mount Sinai.

Jesus is the Torah - the living Torah - He perfectly obeyed His Father, and told us to walk as He walked, with the empowerment that would be given us. Jesus fulfilled the Torah, and told us to do the same, not even relaxing one of the least of the commandments. (a note here: He fulfilled the true Torah, not the man made laws of the scribes, whom He castigated for putting unnecessary burdens on men.)

You quoted from Luke 16:16, I would like to include verse 17 in that quote: [16] "The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. [17]... But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

Thank you once again. I understand your well worded and good intentioned response, although ultimately, I cannot agree with it.

Sharon

Jeremiah 6: [16] Thus says the LORD:
"Stand by the roads, and look,
and ask for the ancient paths,
where the good way is; and walk in it,
and find rest for your souls.
But they said, `We will not walk in it.'


 2008/2/9 19:39Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

wildbranch wrote:
Dear ADisciple,

You say that, quote: "He FULFILLED the Law (Mt. 5.17): and so we walk no longer in the shadow, but in the True Light, in the Very Image of the Law now." Who does? The Church? I am sorry, but I do not see it. The sins (transgression of the law) of the world are rampant in the church, there is no "Very Image of the Law" shining forth.




Hi, Sharon.

It seems that the substance of your argument against what I said concerning the New Covenant is that you're sorry: you do not see it in the Church today.

I agree with you there. Largely, this is a realm the Church has not apprehended. Yet.

That doesn't nullify the truth. It is set forth before us by the apostles (who are, by the way, ministering in obedience to the ascended Christ) as a sure foundation upon which we are to build.

Deny the foundation and you are in trouble.

"For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. [b]For the law made nothing perfect[/b] but the bringing in of a [b]better hope[/b] did, by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb. 7.19).

So, the Old Covenant and its Torah has been annulled because it could not make people perfect (I'm just reading Scripture). And then he says God brought in a "better HOPE."

You don't see it? Neither do I to any great extent. But I keep my Hope alive. We will see the New Covenant fulfilled just as surely as Moses was faithful to fulfill the Old. (See Heb. 3.1-6).

Are we to make the present state of Christians generally (or even of our own lives) the ruler by which we judge the writings of the apostles?

...I might add that the many Scriptures you bring up to say that Paul was advocating for the Law... if you will read them in their full context, you will see that he is clearly teaching that no man can become righteous by the deeds of the Law.

AD


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Allan Halton

 2008/2/9 20:16Profile





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