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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : the ancient paths

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ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Sharon,


You said,


"...and the Messiah himself said that those who obey the commandments and teach them to others would be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. (detailed in previous post)"


Are you referring to Matthew chapter 5 verse 19?


I don't think this is [b]exactly[/b] what He said. I emphasis [b]exactly[/b] because I think there are some important distinctions made here:


The scripture says here that the Lord said



[b]one of these least commandments[/b]

[i]these...[/i]

I think He goes on to say what each of those were. I was reading this this morning and in each case, correct me if I'm worng, He starts out by saying


[b][color=660000]Ye have heard that it was said[/color][/b]


and then He qoutes from the Law or something else


and then He says


[b][color=660000]But I say unto you[/color][/b]


and this is where, I think as you pointed out, the Lord Jesus Christ magnifies the law, or expands it even. But these are specific things He says.





Also, you said


"I think we may have missed what the curse actually is. Could the 'curse' be the punishment which is awaiting us when we break the Torah?"



Paul, the apostle, wrote




[b][color=000000] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [i]is[/i] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]


and


[b][color=000000] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [i]is[/i] every one that hangeth on a tree: [/color][/b]



- Galatians chapter 3 verses 10 and 13(KJV)




Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 1:20Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: His Law, Moses' or Christs'?

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [i]in whom[/i] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.


- Isaiah chapter 42 verse 1-3(KJV)



[i]...and the isles shall wait for his law[/i]






[b][color=660000] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]


[b][color=660000] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [/color][/b]


- John chapter 15 verses 10 and 12(KJV)



See also John 17:8, Matthew 28:18-20, Romans 13:10 and James 2:8.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 1:31Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2793
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

According to Paul in Romans 7 the Christian has no direct relationship with the law but is "dead to the law." Therefore it cannot come between the Christian and his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Christ Himself is his righteousness and sanctification and redemption (1 Corinthians 1:30). How is it possible that we have died to the law? In the same way as it happened that we died to sin. When Christ died, we died. This is a fact. This is the work of the cross which God has done for us and with us.

Righteousness has always been by faith, God looks upon the heart. Paul himself claimed that he was blameless when judged by the outward demands of the law but the real meaning of the law is inward so God, looking not on the outward man but the inward man, found a deceitful heart.

The gospel is God's own righteousness. In it is revealed the righteousness of God or righteousness from God. It is not a means which we can use to become righteous in ourselves, but it gives us righteousness from God by faith and unto faith. In this way the law is fulfilled. The gospel, therefore, does not confront us with the law, but with Christ. He who believes the gospel is righteous before God for time and eternity. He has not first to win righteousness, for he is fully righteous. He does not have to prove that he is fulfilling the law, for God's righteousness needs no proofs. The law has no demands to make on such a man; he is not living within its sphere and is not occupied with its "Thou shalts" and its "Thou shalt nots", but is filled with the love of God in Christ Jesus.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2008/2/9 9:27Profile
wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Chris,

[i]quote: "Circumcision is part of the Law of God given unto Moses. These men were expecting newly converted Gentiles to be circumcised and to be observing the Torah before being admitted into the fellowship of believers. This was how Gentiles had previously been converted, and the process took a long time.

Peter and James spoke out against this old conversion practice, welcoming the new believers into their fellowship, with 4 restrictions placed on them. I call these 4 restrictions 'emergency rulings', which would allow a brand-new convert to immediately gain access to fellowship and full acceptance."

Chris said: "But Sharon, where do you read this in the scriptures?"[/i]

I read that in the NT. Chris, let me ask you a question. :-) When we have new believers come into fellowship today, do we teach them these 4 rulings made by the Jerusalem Council, and leave it at that? I have never once heard anyone preach those 4 rulings to anyone who has been saved. Why not? Why do we not 'lay no greater burden on them, than these 4 necessary thing"s? Why do we expect even more than that?

I know most say (not all), that even the 10 Commandments are abolished or nailed to the cross, but do we not expect someone walking as a disciple of Yeshua to honour their parents, or not be practicing falsehood, or not to be stealing etc? Is the commandment to "Not Steal" a curse? Or a form of bondage? God forbid! It is Freedom! Freedom to walk uprightly.

Many church groups lay heavy, extra-biblical burdens on their congregants, burdens not even found in Torah. As Messiah said....[b]Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men......Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."[/b]

Those 4 rulings were [i]not[/i] required for salvation, even although some men from Judea had come by insisting on full conversion (Circumcision and full observation of Torah BEFORE salvation). The Jerusalem Council strongly addressed that, and did not impose those 4 restrictions on new converts as a [i]requirement[/i] for salvation, but for fellowship. Why else would they have chosen those 4 rulings to be placed on the new believers?

Greco-Roman religion, from which these new believers were saved, was the worship of many gods, goddesses, with all sorts of macabre sensual rites and sexual practices and rituals. Anything to do with pagan temple idolatory was totally unacceptable, and would have [b]no[/b] place amongst the fellowship of believers.

Peter and James did not want any synchronisation of pagan practices to take hold in the churches. Sadly, by the 3rd/4th century, most of the practices of the Romanized church were all taken from the Greco/Roman/Babylonian religions, as outlined by Alexander Hislop in his book on 'The Two Babylons'., and anything to do with the Torah of God was excised.

At the end of the giving of the 4 rulings, James declares that ..."[b]for from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues"[/b]..... In other words, the new converts would be taught the Torah while attending synagogue on the Sabbath day, and be discipled in the ways of the LORD.

Were the new gentile converts ONLY expected to obey those 4 rulings? i.e. abstain from pollution of idols, from fornication, from what is stranged and from blood? Clearly not, but it was a start. They were not giving the newcomers a [b]'license to sin'[/b], because remember, that [b]'sin is the transgression of the law'[/b] John 3:4. They were allowing the grace of our Master Yeshua to work in their lives, which would have the outworking of them becoming 'holy, as He is holy'.

The decision handed down was simple. Tell the gentiles that they must shed their pagan lifestyle and practices, then tell them that they will learn Torah in the synagogues where Moses is taught every Sabbath.

Paul personally oversaw Timothy’s circumcision. He was not bringing Timothy under a curse. Gentiles like Titus or the Galatians he encouraged to remain uncircumcised , being very clear that circumcision was not to be misunderstood as the [b]Ticket into the Kingdom[/b].

We often misunderstand Paul completely. (as Peter warned that the [b]lawless ones[/b] would do). When we forget that he was arguing against requiring Gentiles to be circumcised in order to merit salvation, we assume that he was arguing against keeping of Torah. But he was only arguing that Torah observance and circumcision could not be regarded as [i]prerequisites for salvation[/i]. Ephesians 2:8–9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

I do understand your concern Chris. Most understand Grace and Law to be mutually exclusive. I understand them to go hand in hand, as the [b]Saints are perfectly described in the book of Revelation 14: ..."those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"[/b].

Notice that it does not say there ....[i]those who are in bondage/under a curse to the commandments of God, but those who 'keep the commandments' of God and have the 'faith of Jesus'[/i]. Perfect harmony!


In the grace, and by the grace of our Master Yeshua,

Sharon

 2008/2/9 11:28Profile
wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths


Chris, you asked [i]"His law, Moses or Christ's?[/i]"

Ultimately, all Law comes from YHWH, the Eternal God of Israel. It was handed down to us through Moses, and later magnified by Jesus the Messiah.


[b]*If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

*He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him. (John 14:21)

*If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)

*By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:2-3)

*And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. (2 John 1:6)

*John 15 (12-14) "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.


*1 John 2:3-11 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.'[/b]

The new commandment was a magnifying of the old commandment to 'love your neighbour as yourself'. [b]*Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD."[/b]

Our Master Yeshua taught us to love one another, and to lay down our lives for our friends.

quote from Chris: [i]'...and the isles shall wait for his law....'[/i]
(from Isaiah 42:4)

Later in Isaiah 42:21 we read that concerning the Servant ..."The LORD was pleased, for his righteousness sake, to [b]magnify his law and make it glorious[/b].." note...[b]not make it 'a curse'[/b].

Sharon





 2008/2/9 11:32Profile
wildbranch
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


 Re: ancient paths

Chris, you seem to be saying in one of your posts that when Yeshua was speaking about 'these commandments', that He was only referring to the ones that He mentioned in that discourse. I think that He was actually speaking about the "Law and the Prophets" found in the OT, which he mentioned as He began that subject. - [b]"Think not that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them."[/b] He said not until heaven and earth pass away, not one little part of them would be abolished, until all is accomplished. He later expanded our understanding of some of them.

Messiah also said that [b]unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees, we would in no way enter the Kingdom of heaven.[/b]

Messiah also said that [b]the Scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, and we are to do all that they say, but not what they do, for they are hypocritically not practicing what they preach.[/b]

I simply choose to follow Messiah in the grace that has been given me.

then,

Later, you quoted: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
and
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree".

Again, clearly the 'curse of the law' is the death sentence applicable to those who practice sin by transgressing the law. The Law, Teachings, Commandments (Torah) of God is NOT a curse, in fact the LORD says that choosing to obey the Law is a BLESSING and LIFE. Choosing to disregard, cast aside, or disobey the Law is DEATH and a CURSE.

HalleluYah! Thanks be to God that our Messiah Yeshua has taken and tasted that curse for us. Let us not continue in sin that grace may abound. Choose life.

Sharon



 2008/2/9 11:36Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,


You asked,


"When we have new believers come into fellowship today, do we teach them these 4 rulings made by the Jerusalem Council, and leave it at that?"






There is a context here:



[b][color=000000] And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [/color][/b]


And then


[b][color=000000] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. [/color][/b]


To which Peter says


[b][color=000000]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/color][/b]


He asks, why tempt ye God?



How about you Sharon?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 12:07Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,

You said


"I think that He was actually speaking about the "Law and the Prophets" found in the OT, which he mentioned as He began that subject."


The Lord Jesus said





[b][color=660000]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,...[/color][/b]




[i]...these least[/i]



He states what the Law or others had said


[b][color=660000]Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time[/color][/b]


And then He says


[b][color=660000]But I say unto you...[/color][/b]




John in his record of the Gospel records these words of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant,


[b][color=660000] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [/color][/b]


[b][color=660000]This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [/color][/b]



Whose law are you under?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 12:18Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,


You said,



"Again, clearly the 'curse of the law' is the death sentence applicable to those who practice sin by transgressing the law."





[b][color=000000]...it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. [/color][/b]


that continueth not...


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 12:25Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Sharon,


You said


"I know most say (not all), that even the 10 Commandments are abolished or nailed to the cross, but do we not expect someone walking as a disciple of Yeshua to honour their parents, or not be practicing falsehood, or not to be stealing etc? Is the commandment to "Not Steal" a curse? Or a form of bondage? God forbid! It is Freedom! Freedom to walk uprightly."




[b][color=000000]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [/color][/b]

- Romans 8:14(KJV)



[b][color=000000]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 5:18(KJV)




[b][color=000000]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [/color][/b]

- Galatians 5:22-23(KJV)


[b][color=000000]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [/color][/b]


- Galatians 3:24(KJV)


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/2/9 12:33Profile





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