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 Re:

By the way... this is 11 pages now, and everything has been civil and brotherly. I really appreciate that, y'all!

Krispy

 2008/1/22 9:01
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
The danger of Calvinism is that alot of people get it in theri heads that they can't be saved because they think their not one of the elect



Show me one person who ever thought this. People who are concerned about their salvation are usually being worked on by the Spirit, and thus will be brought to faith in Christ.

Or, other people use this as one of many wrong reasons to not be a Christian. Like the "there are too many hypocrites in the Church" type of thing.

Quote:
It also causes doubt and leaves a person thinking "Am I doing enough. Am I percervering".



I don't know what Calvinism you have been exposed to, but the point of justification by faith alone is that Christ has done all that needs to be done for a person's salvation, and there are no more works needed to gain Heaven. Because the person is justified, they will go through the process of sanctification.

Calvinists, as well as other Bible readers could say that He who began a good work in them is faithful to complete it.

Quote:
It's hopeless trying to witness to these people



Why would you witness to a Calvinist person? They are already in the faith.

Amen to your last point about everlasting life.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/22 11:06Profile









 Re:

In my many discussions with Calvinists, one thing has really stood out with me.....

Romans 12:1&2. When bringing this verse up to most Calvinists they will argue, that WE don't do anything. and this is advocating WORKS if we do.

However, this is our call to the Obedience of Faith with which we stand, and yield our members , those alive from the dead, to God....Romans 6.

Having clarified before , this is not our call to salvation, but service.

Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/22 11:14
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
We have no say in the matter of salvation



But let's start with the fact that none of us deserve salvation, so it's impossible to tell God that it is unfair if He does not save all people.

I guarantee that men make their "choice" early on in life to sin, because they are sinners by nature. If God was completely just, He would never allow anyone to be saved. But because mercy triumphs over judgment, some of the enemies are made sons and daughters.

So in a sense, we don't really have a say in who will be saved, or who won't be saved. But we have all chosen to be damned by our sin, because we love it until God changes our hearts.

Quote:
Am I to believe that when a man sins he can not help himself?



Yes and no.

I'm sure all of us have sinned and afterwards thought, "who was that person?" Of course we realize that that person is our old Adam.

But in an unregenerate person though they may be able to hold back certain sins and appear moral, it is as if their foot is taped down to the accelerator of sin, and there is no brake pedal. Thus they can only sin more and more, but there is nothing within them to convict them or drive out sin and its hold over them.

Of course unsaved men are not as wicked as they could be, because God has ordained that we have laws and police to help keep them in check. Also men have a conscience which some are quite keen to regard, but this cannot save a man. I remember before I was a Christian, I thought that sex outside of marriage was ok so long as I loved the person. My conscience bothered me and I made my own law to make myself feel better.

Quote:
Did God preordain that murder?



I don't know, I know He knows the number of our days, and He has seen the end from the beginning. Ultimately, if God did not want them to perish, they would not have.

Was God wrong when He flooded the Earth, and killed many? Did He ordain that?

Quote:
Did God make that man commit that murder?



No, the man committed the murder out of his own sinful, depraved heart. God may have used his wicked desires for His purpose, but we do not know.

It is similar to having Roman soldiers who think they are killing a rebellious Jew, who thinks he is a king, while redeeming men from every tribe, tongue, and nation in the process.

God uses the wicked desires of men without infringing upon their will. Like the king of Babylon who sought to destroy Israel. God used him as a means of chastening His people, while the king was simply doing what he wanted.

Brother I am not going to lie to you, some of these truths are very difficult to stomach. However man is the one that needs to answer to God, and not the other way around.

We have two choices in this discussion-
1)God is sovereign over all things, and man is subject to His choices.(Which we must remember that God is love, and He does nothing unfairly, or in an unloving way)
2)Man is sovereign and God is servant to man's choices. Thus creating a god who is really one of our own desires, as he or she can be told what to do, when to do it etc.

Krispy if you also look at the story of Joseph, you will see that the evil desires of Joseph's brothers actually were part of God's plan for His people, and Joseph even says in Genesis 50:20-
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/22 11:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But let's start with the fact that none of us deserve salvation, so it's impossible to tell God that it is unfair if He does not save all people.



No one is saying that. But I will say that you color God in a very dark color if you say that He never gives an opportunity to all men to be saved.

Krispy

 2008/1/22 12:27









 Re:

Quote:
we have all chosen to be damned by our sin, because we love it until God changes our hearts.



And according to your theology, regeneration happens BEFORE salvation, correct?

Krispy

 2008/1/22 12:29









 Re:

Quote:
God uses the wicked desires of men without infringing upon their will.



wait wait... You cant have it both ways, my friend. The ones God created for hell have a will, but those created for heaven do not?

Quote:
We have two choices in this discussion-
1)God is sovereign over all things, and man is subject to His choices.(Which we must remember that God is love, and He does nothing unfairly, or in an unloving way)
2)Man is sovereign and God is servant to man's choices. Thus creating a god who is really one of our own desires, as he or she can be told what to do, when to do it etc.



No, you're wrong here... there are 3 choices...

3) God is sovereign over all things, yet in His wisdom and ability to do so He has [i]chosen[/i] to allow man to accept Him or reject Him.

Just because God chooses to allow man to "choose life" or death does not in anyway effect His sovereignty. He could, at any second, decide to take that choice away.

If a judge has to power to sentence a man to death, but decides not to... does that weaken the power that he has? No. In fact, he is actually exercising his power.

Calvinists want to paint it black and white, make it sound as tho there are only two side to this... but thats not true. Your second option isnt even what Arminians believe. Its a misrepresentation, and it's a debate ploy meant to back the opponent into the corner. But it's simply not true.

Krispy

 2008/1/22 12:36
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
regeneration happens BEFORE salvation



Yes, because the old heart left to its own desires is only capable of sinning, or making up its own religious pursuits of acceptance with God. But it will not trust Christ as it sees nothing of value in Him.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/22 12:56Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Krsipy,
I think if you were to hear yourself pray, would would agree that God's will supercedes mans' will.
many times we pray like this for unbelievers,
God open his eyes...
God break his heart...
God bring him to salvation
God make him choose you ...
God save him..
We never say let so and so give you premision to come into his life so that you can save him, many times in prayer we care not for the unbleivers freewill but that God's will takes over and saves him.
so many times we pray that God would come crashing thru into a mans heart and turn the man's heart to be saved from sin and then later some of us say "will God cant do that because God infringed on man's free will". does not jive
true
love
andy


_________________
andy

 2008/1/22 13:10Profile









 Re:


There are only two scriptures that use the word regeneration, the first you will see in Matthew 19:28....states ye which follow me in the regeneration....New Birth.

In other words, those who identify or follow Jesus in Death and resurrection life, will sit with Him on the Throne. This is promised in Revelation....Those who overcome will reign and rule with Me. This Promise is to the Church...The Body of Christ. This is our ...the Church's calling out.



Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Church is also called to Judge the fallen Angels:

Paul said:


1 Corinthians 6:2-4

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.


Now concerning salvation and regeneration. No not of works, because salvation is regeneration.

No where does it say this is done prior to receiving Jesus Christ.

This is the result and evidence we are truly Saved and our repentance and faith in Christ is genuine.



According to His Mercy.....

When Jesus Christ Rose from the dead this is what happened:

Psalm 85:10
10Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.



Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Katy

 2008/1/22 13:19





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