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 Re:

Compliments:

When Paul says MY Gospel, he is talking to Gentiles, reminding them any other Gospel then the one He preached is accursed.

He also uses WE, US and OUR in referring to the Gospel.

Now think for a moment.

Before Paul was saved, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was first announced in Mark.

(Not the Gospel of the Earthly Kingdom announced in Matthew)

I've brought all these verses with the word Gospel. The Gospel was preached on the day of Pentecost...long before Paul was saved.

Cornelius was preached the Gospel by Peter.

To say these men were preaching ANOTHER Gospel is to say those saved from Pentecost to Paul are not members of the Body of Christ, and Christ is not In Them.

Well, we know Christ is most certainly in them, as they received the Holy Spirit. No one can receive the Holy Spirit apart from receiving Christ...based upon repentance.

After Paul's years alone, he went to the council and shared with them all the Lord had taught him, and they extended to him the right hand of fellowship.

If Paul had a different Gospel then they had, and one they had never heard...no such hand would have been extended.

It's not Paul's Gospel, but the Gospel of Salvation...the Gospel of Jesus Christ...committed to Paul as was committed to the Apostles before him.


You will see, Jesus preached the Gospel,
Peter and ALL the Apostles on the day of Pentecost preached the Gospel of salvation..the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They did not preach the Earthly Kingdom to be restored to Israel , as Jesus told Peter and the apostles in Acts 1:6&7 that that time was appointed by the Father and only He knew when that would be. Jesus said No, not now.


Stephen,

The Author of Hebrews (who is NOT PAUL ).Paul died before the Letter of Hebrews was written.

Enjoy:


Mark 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mark 1:14
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Mark 10:29
And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 14:9
Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luke 7:22
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Luke 9:6
And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.
Luke 9:5-7 (in Context) Luke 9 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 20:1

And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,

Acts 8:25
And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Acts 14:7
And there they preached the gospel.

Acts 14:21
And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 16:10
And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Romans 1:15
So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 15:19
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Romans 15:20
Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

Romans 15:29
And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:12
If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:16
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

1 Corinthians 9:18
What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9:23
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1 Corinthians 15:1
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 Corinthians 2:12
Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,

2 Corinthians 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 8:18
And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

2 Corinthians 9:13
Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;

2 Corinthians 10:14
For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

2 Corinthians 10:16
To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.


2 Corinthians 11:7
Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?

Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Galatians 1:7
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:11
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 2:2
And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.


Galatians 2:5
To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 4:13
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Philippians 1:5
For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

Philippians 1:7
Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

Philippians 1:12
But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

Philippians 1:17
But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:22
But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel.

Philippians 4:3
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Philippians 4:15
Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.

Colossians 1:5
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Thessalonians 1:5
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

1 Thessalonians 2:2
But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.


1 Thessalonians 2:4
But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

1 Thessalonians 2:8
So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

1 Thessalonians 2:9
For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:2
And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 2:14
Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:11
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

2 Timothy 1:8
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Philemon 1:13
Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel:

Hebrews 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

1 Peter 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.(Sorry, they were not preached the gospel of the Kingdom restored to Israel)

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?



Love in Christ
Katy

 2008/1/19 22:01
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I am not seeking what you call a 'tit-for-tat' but, I felt your comments were particularly undermining of the person, rather than reflecting an honest attempt to wrestle with the challenge of the questions.



This is because I see no sense in wrestling with a straw man, and besides, I really don't see my posts as undermining as you make them out to be. Why aren't you applying the same concern to the undermining of Paul the Apostle?

Quote:
I deliberately stayed out of it earlier, because I thought the brethren would answer with a decent level of academic prowess, but I am genuinely amazed at the lack of forensic engagement with the topic.



What kind of academic prowess would you like? Mile-long threads of disingenious and dead psychobabble? Forensic is a good word choice.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/19 22:05Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Who anointed Paul???

crsschk wrote:
This is practically unbelievable ...

Who anointed Forrest is the real question here.

Quote:
Saul claimed to be anointed by Jesus ...

Did Paul overstep his bounds? For there are conflicts in what Paul said that conflict with what the other Apostles said, and even what Jesus said.



Quote:
For those that love Paul and his message, please note that this is a question on doctrine, not an attack on Paul's message of Grace through Faith, BECAUSE that message is merely a restatement of what Jesus DID by becoming our Paschal Lamb.



Quote:
I simply want to discuss why God would have Paul contradict some things that Jesus said...is it merely contextual?



Quote:
But many people question not the message of Paul, but his frequently odd behavior.



Quote:
Let this not be personal, but a true discussion of points that bother many people about Paul. And they do bother people...enough to lead them away from Christianity, or to doubt God's message.



Quote:
And I am asking because I am asked these questions, and I'd like to have some really good answers...if there are any!



Not an attack, not personal? "Paul claimed", "Paul is conflicted", just the way these questions are framed.

[color=993300]Very well, I will rephrase them, and carefully attempt to question Paul's writings without provoking anything but a discussion of the question.[/color]

But you are yet proving otherwise, that your intention is not merely for those who are asking you but because you yourself have unresolved issues and want a contest, not answers.

[color=993300]This is not a contest, and my unresolved issues have nothing to do with anything in the Bible, proved or unproved.

I do not want a contest. I want to ask questions, as reasonably as I know how to, and get answers.[/color]

Furthermore how do expect this to be not 'personal' by using terminology such as "Paulites" ...

[color=993300][If someone, like Paul, is talking about their own gospel, as opposed to Jesus' gospel, and it is being quoted here on SI in that manner, it seems reasonable to used the word Paulite.

I will happily cease to do so if only people speak of Jesus' gospel, for it is Jesus' good news that everyone is talking about in the New Testament, including Paul.[/color]

This is a load of rubbish. You have already attempted to make Paul suspect with your 'odd behavior' and taking a colloquialism to be a lie and a 'problem'.

[color=993300]I only dispute Gill's defense of Paul because he uses Paul's words to defend Paul.

If there is a defense for lying, I do not know it.[/color]

You would rewrite the scriptures to suit your own taste and come here to challenge, no contest, by making us the ones bearing the burden of proof?

[color=993300]I would not rewrite one word of the Old Testament, or what Jesus said according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the epistle of James, the 1st epistle of Peter, or the epistle to the Hebrews. I would challenge or contest the scriptures, Act's. all of Paul's epistles, and 2nd Peter. And I question and challenge them here because that is what this forum is for.

As for your bearing the burden of proof, when I have openly acknowledged that I do not know enough to answer these questions, of course I would.

The best scholars in the world come here.

But if the questions cannot be answered, then I will simply cease asking them.

However, the questions will still be there.[/color]

I do not know what you have been reading or where you are getting these notions...

[color=993300]I have been reading Paul, Luke, John, Matthew, James, 1Peter, The OT, Revelation, and so forth, the History of the Christian Church, and talking to other Christians.

And I have questions I cannot answer, so I have come to my bretheren for help. That's all.[/color]

but assuredly as MC put it someplace there are some who have no real intentions of seeking answers only rounds and rounds of endless point counter point, trying to get someone to back down and using scripture to support it all.

[color=993300]So you are saying that Paul is not supported by Jesus or the 11 Apostles?[/color]

It is dishonest, disheartening and grievous and that is about as mildly as I can put it ...

[color=993300]I am not being dishonest in asking these questions.

They are honest questions, and I am becoming more interested in the answers the more you all prevaricate, attack me for not being an inerrant believer, and refuse to address the questions.
[/color]

Actually, there is an indignation that I cannot even fathom trying to burst through here while simultaneously trying to suppress some of the blasphemous things you are stating.

[color=993300]
[b]Topics: Blasphemy

Text: In general the word means simply slander or insult and includes any action (e.g., a gesture) as well as any word that devalues another person or being, living or dead. This general secular idea was made more specific in religious contexts, where blasphemy means to insult, mock, or doubt the power of god.

Elwell's Theological Dictionary.[/b]


Paul would not be insulted by my questions, unless he could not answer them, particular if he knew how earnestly I am asking them.

I am not slandering Paul, or mocking him. I do him the courtesy of taking him seriously, indeed, so seriously that I want him to be right in all that he said.

And since Paul is not God, I am not doubting the power of God.

I believe it to be possible for the Christians in the late 3rd century to pick and choose what gospel they thought they should present, and that they were in a dangerous dispute with Jewish believers.

I am aware that men can be deceived, and believe all that they think, and write.

I have questions about some of the things Paul said and did, and hence, I am asking if Paul might not be in error.

I am also not underestimating the power of the evil one to deceive Paul, and hence Luke, or the Christians making the decision on which scriptures to include, and which to discard.

I am still trying to find out if my questions can be answered by one more knowledgable than I.[/color]

You are attempting to dissect, discredit and separate the word of God,

[color=993300]No. I am merely asking if Paul, a man, could have been deceived, or could have made an error, and I have many questions that are about what Paul wrote and did.

If Paul was in error, it doesn't discredit anyone except Paul, possibly Luke, and the Christians at the canonization of the scriptures.

It makes them men, not gods, that's all.

I believe that the 11 Apostles were perfectly accurate BECAUSE they were hand picked and personally taught by Jesus, and breathed on by Him in his resurrected body.

My questions are not about the gospel of Jesus, our salvation in Christ, and so forth. My questions are about Paul, and his effect on the Christian Church, and whether that effect was not planned by the evil one to create dissension, and minimize Jewish believers at the time of the canonization of the scriptures.[/color]

the apostles didn't have an issue with Paul whatsoever and to hear mere wordlings attempt to supplant even them ...

[color=993300]We don't know that at all. We do not know what was excluded from the Bible, we only know what was approved.

If Paul isn't 100% supported by those men that handpicked, taught and breathed on by Jesus, there may be a problem with some things Paul said, and did, which only invalidates the idea of inerrancy of scripture, and Paul's gospel, which does have a lot of ramifications, particularly the mystery of the rapture, which I consider to be the devil's ploy to deceive Christians.[/color]

It's ludicrous. Unfathomable. This is rank heresy.

[color=993300]My questions are honest, and not ludicrous.

My questions are not unfathomable.

And heresy only means we do not see eye to eye on doctrine.

[b]Topics: Heresy

Text: The Greek word hairesis means: (1) a choice e.g., Lev. 22:18, 21 (LXX), where "gifts according to their choice" means free-will offering; (2) a chosen opinion, the only NT example being in II Pet. 2:1, where "destructive opinions" are caused by false teaching;

Elwells Theological Dictionary.[/b]


Asking questions is not disallowed me, and anger because I am setting the bound of the proof's being limited to Jesus and the 11 breathed upon, hand taught Apostles, is beginning to make my point for me.

If there are no proof's for Paul outside of Paul and Luke, then there is room for questioning Paul, no matter how much we love him.

I am asking my bretheran at SI these questions because I cannot get an answer to them elsewhere, and I want Paul to be vindicated...by Jesus, and the 11 Apostles.

I am not a good enough scholar EXCEPT in Paul, and I wonder if anyone in the Christian Church is, to prove Paul valid through unimpeachable witnesses.

[b]1 Peter 3:8. Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9. Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11. Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14. But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:[/b]


If Paul cannot stand on what Jesus wrote, and the Apostles passed on, then Paul is in error.[/color]

Who the hell do you think you are?

[color=993300]I am your sister in Christ, asking questions about a man who is an honored by many men, for several people that I have discussed these matters with, and now, because your refusal, and others, to answer the questions has raised real doubts in me about Paul.

I do not deny Paul is a great teacher on Jesus's gospel.

I do not KNOW if he goes too far, and I want to know if Paul is perfect in his grasp, and teaching of Jesus' gospel. And consequently, I have questions.

But since a lot of Christians do not claim inerrency for the Bible, I do feel able to ask questions about what is in the Bible since the days of the Apostles.

And I want the test to be framed by irreproachable quotes...for no one can doubt the validity of Jesus, and the validated epistles of the 11 breathed upon Apostles.[/color]

You would like to disallow this and disallow that?

[color=993300]Yes, of course, for the deepest question in my heart now is, did the church in the late 3rd century suppress scripture that disagreed with Paul, and his close friend Luke.

If they had no need to do so, I will be very relieved.

But if that is the case, then the questions I have asked, and the ones I have yet to ask will be able to be answered by Jesus and the 11 Apostles.[/color]

You have doubt's about this authorship and that?
Are you a liberal theologian?

[color=993300]I have some doubts about Paul that I would like to have relieved, and since Luke was, due to their close association, Paul's friend, I think that we have to eliminate Luke on the expectation that Paul may have taught him, or influenced his thought.

But no, I am not a liberal theologian. I accept all that is written in the Old Testament, for Jesus validated it.

I accept all that Jesus said because of the reports and actions of the 11 Apostles, and because all the fulfilled prophecies prove that Jesus is the one and only Christ.

I accept all the 11 Apostles, for they vouched for one another.

I believe that Paul and Luke are both Christians, and Paul especially was a great teacher of the Gospel.

However, I know that Paul was a man, did not have the special anointing that the 11 Apostles did, and MAY have been deceived.[/color]

Why should we be taking anything you state as serious inquiry?

[color=993300]Because I am asking it seriously, in a real search for Paul to be validated, as your sister in Christ.[/color]

You do not want anything proved true except your foolish notions. Off the deep end Forrest.

[color=993300]I am not off the deep end. I am merely asking uncomfortable questions.

I am not concerned about anything except some points about Paul's ministry and doctrine that should be able to be answered by the scriptures, by someone that knows them better than I do.

But if the doctrinal questions about Paul's gospel of Jesus, so very well taught to all of us, do not stand up to what Jesus taught, and the 11 Apostles taught and verified, then Paul could have been deceived in a few points.

And if Paul WAS deceived at all, then we CAN question his witness.

My point is that Jesus and the 11 Apostles were enough to get us all saved, and if they don't back what all of what Paul says, then there are serious problems with Paul's gospel, and possibly Luke's as well.

I realize that by questioning Paul, I cannot help questioning your belief in the inerrency of the gospel, but taking Paul away from the Bible would not invalidate Jesus, or the 11 Apostles, or Christianity.[/color]

I could but pray you seriously reconsider just what it is you think you are doing, the scriptures are written not for your amusement to pit your intellect against but for our learning last and God's glory first ...

[color=993300]I am not attempting to pit my intellect against any one else's.

I am not asking these questions for amusement, but because doubts have been raised in me about the validity of Paul's Gospel, and Luke's, as Paul's disciple and friend.[/color]

This certainly has the truest sense of "Has God said?" that I have yet to see here.

[color=993300]If my only fault was being deceived by the great deceiver only once in my life, I would be greatly relieved.

Comparing me to Eve for questioning some few things about a man, however anointed, is not in the same class as questioning God.[/color]

You have made it personal alright and you need to be humbled from your high mindedness.

[color=993300]Truly, I am not seeking anything but the truth.

It has nothing to do with my pride, or highmindedness, because I am seeking answers to reasonable questions. I may have phrased them badly, but I mean the questions honestly.

And the questions are reasonable to anyone who doesn't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, and there are a lot of Christians who don't believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

It's doesn't make us non-Christians, just people with questions.[/color]

You are damn right you have some outrage ...

[color=993300]I am truly sorry you are offended in me, but the questions remain, and there are more pending in me about Paul's teaching.

If no one amongst the very great scholars on this board are willing to answer the questions that are truly and seriously troubling me, your sister in Christ, it does not make them invalid. It might even make them more valid.

I want Paul to be vindicated. Are you saying that he cannot be?

In all humility I ask for an unemotional discussion of my questions.[/color]





PaulWest wrote:
Quote:
Are you a liberal theologian?



Brother Mike, this is indeed liberal theology 101 - a textbook case - and we really shouldn't be surprised when we encounter it.

[color=993300]Really? You could have waited for me to answer Mike, and not answer for me.[/color]

This woman has put herself in a very dangerous predicament as she assumes to be a teacher...she is in a position to receieve all the more condemnation, and I fear for her soul.

[color=993300]Actually, I do not teach...I am not taking authority over anyone, and those that come to my site come because they want to. I write, because God told me to. And since I consult Him on when I write for my blog, and listen for the least objection when I write at SI, and I have only heard from the Holy Spirit to ask what is in my heart, and to ask quietly and respectflly, and since I am truly in doubt over the answers I am asking, I do not feel afraid for asking questions, the more because none of you want to answer them.[/color]

God forbid she is speading this terrible conjecture and subverting the faith of weaker believers.

[color=993300]Actually, I am spreading nothing, just asking questions. Your lack of answers may however be leading to weakening the faith of other believers.[/color]

It is a fearful thing to tamper with the Word and cast seeds of doubt in the minds of babes.

[color=993300]I am not tampering with the Word of God, Who is Jesus. I do not worship the Bible, althought I value it highly as the revealed word of God.

I am asking questions about certain writers in the Bible, where questions have come up, first in others, and now in me.[/color]

Let this be a sober warning to us all to remain rooted in sound doctrine. It would do us all very well to read through Timothy I & II a few times this week.

Brother Paul

[color=993300]There's only one problem with 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy...they were written by Paul, and you have not answered my questions about Paul.

The questions are reasonable, because Paul could have been deceived, and so could have Luke, because he was taught by Paul.

Paul and Luke were men, and that leaves Paul and Luke still in doubt. As men. Paul himself could have made an error or two, being a man, and subject to being deceived.

And if I am asked questions, and ask them of you, and you do not answer me, I grow yet more curious about whether those questions are not valid ones, because you will not answer them.

And I begin to ask them in my own name as well as for others.

What you do not seem to see is that the questions are out there, the world is watching, and they are seeing you dodging the questions.

Any babe's in Christ are grounded in the word of Jesus, and they are perfectly safe there, for Jesus says he will not let them fall.

[b]Jude 1:24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.[/b][/color]






Christinyou wrote:

If we disregard Luke and Paul, that wipes out the Acts, Gospel of Luke, and most of Paul's writings written by other that for Pauls hand, but His seal was always on all of His epistles and all knew it was Paul. There were false epistles being written and Paul's salutation was well known.

[color=993300]I value Paul and Luke very much as ministers of God. However, it does not mean, because they taught well, or wrote brilliantly, that they were the difinitive explanation of Jesus' gospel.

Jesus was the definitive expositor on Himself, and He had a lot of great Apostles, who spoke the Gospel accurately.

Evidently, you do not feel that Jesus or the Eleven can explain Christianity, but only Paul and Luke.[/color]

A personal prejudice I can understand toward Paul, but a biblical truth prejudice I cannot see in any of the scriptures and written by the hand of God through the Holy Spirit, which all scripture is given by. This is truly an attack on the Word of God and its blotting out the greatest Apostle there is to the born again believer in Christ. The in Christ position of Paul is truly under attack from all sides.

In Christ: Phillip


[color=993300]I have no personal predjudice against Paul...I merely have some questions that none of you seem to want to answer.

But by not answering the questions, you merely point out that you do not want to, or cannot answer the questions.

Forrest[/color]




rowdy2 wrote:
Reply to Forrest

Forrest take some time and think about who is writing and when he is writing and what he is writing and who established those churches and Who is standing in their midst.

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last and what thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace and his voice as the sound of many waters and he had in his right hand seven stars and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Forrest you are painting outside the lines.



[color=993300]I have no doubt that Paul established the Churches, nor that Paul was an awesome preacher.

Jesus, in choosing Paul's churches to make his points, does not make Paul infallible. Jesus chose these churches because they spoke particularly to issues He was disturbed by. But I have never denyed that Paul is a great teacher of the Word.

I want to ask some questions that no one seems to want to answer, and the more everyone tries to convince me that Paul is perfect, the more I doubt it.

Here is part of what I have been asked, with the scriptural contradictions.


[b]The Road to Damascus[/b]

In Chapter Nine of the Book of Acts, Luke, a Physician and Saul’s traveling companion, recounts how Saul encounters the Risen Lord Jesus Christ while on the “Road to Damascus” to persecute the Church there.

“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.” (ACTS 9:3-8)

Curiously, the phrase “kick against the pricks” is found nowhere else in scripture. The phrase this “Lord” speaks to Saul was written four hundred and fifty years earlier by the Greek poet, Aeschylus, in his mythological work "Prometheus Bound". Here, the Titan Oceanus says,

[i]Such punishment, Prometheus, is the wage.
But thou, not yet brought low by suffering,
To what thou hast of ill would'st add far worse.
Therefore, while thou hast me for schoolmaster,
[b]Thou shalt not kick against the pricks[/b]; the more
That an arch-despot who no audit dreads
Rules by his own rough will.[/i]

According to ancient Greek mythology, Prometheus was the rebellious god that brought fire to man. This displeased Zeus, who chained him to a rock where he suffered unimaginable torments for the rest of eternity.

Oceanus was the ancient Greeks’ Titan of the world’s saltwater bodies (seas and oceans). He is not to be confused with the ancient Greek god of the Mediterranean, Prometheus. Statues of Oceanus depict the upper half of his body as a muscular human torso, arms and a head adorned by a long beard and horns. His lower half consists of a scaly, fish-like, coiling tail. Please note that this particular titan holds a [i]fish[/i] in one hand and a [i]serpent in the other.[/i]

The Lord appears to Saul as a “light from heaven”. But the Lord God of Heaven is not the only being that may sometimes appear as a being of light, as Saul elsewhere states,

“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” (II COR 11:14)

Throughout our Lord’s earthly ministry He gave sight to the blind. Yet, according to Saul Jesus took away his sight.

There is also a contradiction between two conflicting reports from the witnesses surrounding Saul on the road,

“And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.” (ACTS 9:7)

“And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” (ACTS 22:9)

In the first description of Saul’s event on the road, the men hear a voice but see nothing. In the second description, the men see a light, but hear nothing.

Thus, during the early hours of his conversion,

1. Saul hears a voice speaking the very same phrase, word for word, spoken by an ancient Greek titan nearly four-and-a-half centuries earlier;
2. Saul sees a brilliant light which he later admits could very well have been the Devil;
3. Two conflicting reports emerge concerning the events that transpired that fateful night.


It is improbable that our Omniscient Lord would speak, word-for-word, the words of a pagan deity, such as Oceanus, to Saul the Apostle since God’s says of pagan gods,

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” (EXO 20:3-6)

But this is not the only place in the Bible where Saul communes with pagan deity. At Mars’ Hill, he equates the Father with the pagan “Unknown God” of the Romans.

“Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, [i]TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.[/i] Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.” (ACTS 17:22-23)

Later on in his epistles he calls Him the “invisible God”.

“Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is [i]the image of the invisible God[/i], the firstborn of every creature…” (I COL 1:12-15)

“Now unto the King eternal, immortal, [i]invisible[/i], the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (I TIM 1:17)

The words “unknown” and “invisible” (not to mention “unknown God” or “invisible God”) are found nowhere else in scripture but in the writings of Saul and Luke.

But what does our Lord God Almighty say about those who would command us to follow after “unknown/invisible” pagan gods?

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, [i]Let us go after other gods, [b]which thou hast not known,[/b] and let us serve them[/i]; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” (DEU 13:1-3)

The Lord Almighty is quite visible to His faithful prophets and saints. He walked with Adam and Eve in the Eden. He sent His Holy Angels to Abraham and Lot. He wrestled with Jacob by the river. He spoke with Moses out of the Burning Bush. He dwelt as a Pillar of Fire among the Israelites in the wilderness for a span of forty years. He revealed Himself to the prophets in many ways. He walked on Earth, preached the Gospel, healed us, and forgave us our sins.

However, according to the scripture cited above, the Lord does allow false prophets to walk amongst His Bride to test their faithfulness to Him. Will you remain loyal to the God you’ve known? Or will you whore after a pretender’s unknown god?

[b]“Saul” Becomes “Paul” and Blinds Elymas “the Sorcerer”[/b]

The first instance of the Saul’s new name, “Paul”, appears in Acts 13, where Saul faces off with Elymas “the Sorcerer”,

“But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.” (ACTS 13:8-11)

Two important events must be noted. First, “Saul” is now called “Paul”. Second, Paul curses a man with blindness for denying Paul’s doctrines.

Nowhere in Acts or in Paul’s Epistles is this name change explained. We know the Lord bequeathed the name “Peter”, or “The Rock”, on His disciple Simon. But how and where did Saul become Paul?

One of our Lord’s warnings concerning false prophets springs to mind,

“I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: [i]if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.[/i]” (JOHN 5:43)

Now Elymas may or may not have been a genuine sorcerer since Luke states in parentheses, “for so is his name by interpretation”. Whatever the case, we know that this man withstood “Paul’s” doctrines and because of this, Paul, “filled with the Holy Ghost”, curses the man with blindness – just as Paul himself was blinded on the road to Damascus.

But doesn’t this conflict with our Lord’s ministry on Earth? When Jesus was filled with the Holy Ghost, He forgave sins, preached the Gospel, healed the sick, and gave sight to the blind. He also said,

“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.” (MATT 5:44)

It was prophesied of Messiah,

[i]“The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind[/i]: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.” (PSA 146:8)

“And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and [i]the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity[/i], and out of darkness.” (ISA 29:18)

And Jesus said to the messengers of John the Baptist,

[i]“The blind receive their sight[/i], and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.” (MATT 11:5)

Saul was blinded on the road and, after he receives his sight again, curses another with blindness. What says the Lord of those who are blinded by the blind?

“Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” (MATT 15:14)

Now, we must admit that the Angels of the Lord temporarily blinded the rape gangs surrounding Lot’s house in Sodom. But we must also admit that they did so in self-defense to protect themselves and the family from the multitude of Sodomites, and to give them time to escape God’s impending Judgment on the city. The angels’ actions were necessity to mercifully protect Lot’s family.

This is an exception, not the rule.

As a rule, the Lord of Truth opens the eyes of the blind. As a rule, Satan lies to us and deceives us.

Thus, those who preach the truth, love their enemies, and give sight to the blind are of God. Those who preach lies, hate their enemies, and blind the sighted are of the Devil.

[b]Do You Follow Jesus or Paul?[/b]

Paul exhorts believers to follow him as he follows Christ,

[i]“Be ye followers of me,[i] even as I also am of Christ.” (I COR 11:1)

“Brethren, [i]be followers together of me,[/i] and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.” (PHIL 3:17)

But the Lord says,

“And he saith unto them, [i]Follow me,[/i] and I will make you fishers of men.” (MATT 4:19)

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and [i]follow me.[/i]” (MATT 16:24)

“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and [i]the sheep follow him:[/i] for they know his voice. And [i]a stranger will they not follow,[i] but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (JOHN 10:4-5)

[b]Is God or Paul Your Father?[/b]

Paul says he is “like a father” to his disciples who he has “begotten” through the Gospel,

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, [i]yet have ye not many fathers:[/i] for in Christ Jesus [b]I have begotten you[/b] [i]through the gospel.[/i] Wherefore I beseech you, [i]be ye followers of me.[/i]” (I COR 4:15)

“Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, [i]as a father doth his children,[/i] That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.” (I THES 2:10-12)

Jesus said we have but one Father,

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” (MATT 23:9)

[b]Do You Obey Jesus Christ or the “Official Church Authorities”?[/b]

Paul implements a church system wherein “Bishops”, “Deacons”, and “Elders” are anointed, ordained and awarded authority above and beyond the powers of church laity. He describes the personal characteristics, family history, and social skills necessary to fulfill these “offices”.

“This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a [i]bishop[/i], he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

“Likewise must the [i]deacons[/i] be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (I TIM 3:1-16)

Rebuke not an [i]elder[/i], but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren… Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. (I TIM 5:1-23)

Compare Paul’s “system” with the Word of Jesus Christ.

“But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. [i]But it shall not be so among you:[/i] but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (MATT 20:25-28)

James concurs with a warning.

“My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” (JAM 3:1)

Again, Jesus warns us to avoid official-sounding titles like “rabbi”, “father”, or “master”. Also note how our Lord despises those who seek positions of religious power and the applause of men (respect of persons – please compare with Paul’s socialite bishops and deacons, who must have a house, be married, be well-liked by everyone, etc).

“The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. [i][i]But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.[/i] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (MATT 23:2-12)

James agrees once more with the Lord’s commandment regarding temporal authority – that the “haves” are no more worthy of religious authority than the “have-nots”.

“My brethren, [i]have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.[/i] For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But [i]if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.”[/i] (JAM 2:1-9)


Now, keep Paul’s authoritative system in mind as you read the Word of our Lord to the Church of the Ephesians via the Revelation of John:

“Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and [i]thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:[/i] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. [i]But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”[/i] (REV 2:1-6)

“Nicolaitans” is a Greek word: “Leaders” (Nico) of the “Laity” (laitans).

As for the “false apostles” the Ephesians “tried” and found to be “liars”…

[b]According to Paul, Paul Doesn’t Lie![/b]

“The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that [i]I lie not.[/i]” (II COR 11:31)

“Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, [i]I lie not.[/i]” (GAL 1:20)

“Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and [i]lie not;[/i]) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.” (I TIM 2:7)

“I say the truth in Christ, I [i]lie not[/i], my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.” (ROM 9:1-2)

Would you believe the child who felt compelled to explain to his mother, father, uncle and aunt, “I didn’t steal any cookies”?

[b]But, According to Paul, Paul Does Lie![/b]

“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged… For if the truth of God hath more abounded through [i]my lie[/i] unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?” (ROM 3:4-7)

[b]Paul’s Crafty and Uses Guile to Catch the Heathen[/b]

“But be it so, I did not burden you: [i]nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.”[/i] (II COR 12:16)

Yet, Paul says elsewhere,

“For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, [i]nor in guile."[/i] (I THES 2:3)

Whatever the case, the Word is clear when it comes to guile, craftiness, and trickery.

“Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.” (PSA 32:2)

“Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.” (PSA 34:13)

“Wickedness is in the midst thereof: deceit and guile depart not from her streets.” (PSA 55:11)

[i]“And in their mouth was found no guile:[/i] for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (REV 14:5)

[b]Three Warnings from Paul are Equal to Three Witnesses[/b]

“This is the third time I am coming to you. [i]In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”[/i] (II COR 13:1)

However, Moses and Jesus here describe the proper method of determining justice below.

“One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.” (DEU 19:15)

“But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.” (MATT 18:16)

[b]Paul Like Jesus, and Unlike the Apostles, Doesn’t Baptise[/b]

“Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. [i]For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:[/i] not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” (I COR 1:12-17)

Jesus commanded His Apostles and Disciples to baptize all nations. Jesus, however, did not baptize. Thus, if Paul does not baptize, who does he make himself out to be, an Apostle… or an equal to Jesus?

“When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, [i](Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)[/i]” (JOHN 4:1-2)

[i]“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:[/i] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (MATT 28:19-20)

[b]Paul Doesn’t Sin. His “Flesh” Does.[/b]

“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [i]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.[/i] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [i]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me…[/i] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [i]So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.[/i]” (ROM 7:6-25)

The Galatians seemed not to have minded Paul’s fleshly infirmities and temptations… whatever they might have been.

“Ye know how through [i]infirmity of the flesh[/i] I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And [/i]my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected;[/i] but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.” (GAL 4:14)

Perhaps Paul’s fleshly infirmities, temptations, and sins have something to do with his demonic traveling companion.

“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a [i]thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan[/i] to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. (II COR 12:7)

Yet, the Lord Himself says that He came to destroy the works of the Devil and that He saves us from our sins. Is it possible for an Apostle of the Lord to be “buffeted” by a demon while in the Lord’s employ? Can a Holy Apostle sin in the flesh and serve the Lord?

Jesus says of those who actively sin,

[i]“He that committeth sin is of the devil;[/i] for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (I JOHN 3:18)

John says,

“We know that [i]whosoever is born of God sinneth not;[/i] but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (I JOHN 5:18)

And James says,

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But [i]every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.[/i] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.” (JAM 1:13-16)

Jesus says of demonic possession,

“When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.” (MATT 12:43-45)

[b]Now, let’s explore James the Just’s refutation of some of Paul’s core doctrines [/b]

[b]Paul Says of Temptation[/b]

“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (I COR 10:13)

[b]But James says[/b]

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But [i]every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.[/i] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.” (JAM 1:13-16)

[b]Paul Teaches Abraham Was Justified by Faith Alone[/b]

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [b]Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[/b] Know ye therefore that [i]they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.[/i] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [i]So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.[/i] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [i]And the law is not of faith;[/i] but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. [i]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.[/i] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for [i]if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/i] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, [i]we are no longer under a schoolmaster.[/i] (GAL 3:1-25)

In the argument above, Paul quotes from Genesis,

“And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (GEN 15:6)

[b]James Uses the Very Same Scripture to Prove that Abraham’s Faith was Void if He Hadn’t Acted on His Faith[/b]

[i]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?[/i] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: [i]shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.[/i] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, [b]Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:[/b] and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that [i]by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[/i] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [i]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.[/i] (JAM 2:14-26)

[b]Paul Utilizes the Word “Glass” to Describe First, His Inability to View God,[/b]

For now [i]we see through a glass, darkly;[/i] but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (I COR 13:12)

[b]And Paul Uses the Same Word “Glass” Again to Describe the Way He Views God,[/b]

But we all, with open face [i]beholding as in a glass[/i] the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (II COR 3:18)

[b]James, Uses Paul’s Descriptive Word “Glass” the Same Way He Uses Paul’s Citation from Genesis… to Leave no Doubt in the Alert Reader’s Mind About Who’s False Doctrine He is Warning Against[/b]

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. [i]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man [b]beholding his natural face in a glass:[/i][/b] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. (JAM 1:22-23)

[b]Paul teaches his followers they are “liberated” from the Commandments he considers to be “the yoke of bondage”,[/b]

“Stand fast therefore in the [i]liberty[/i] wherewith Christ hath made us free, and [i]be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.[/i] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be… This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. [i]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[/i]” (GAL 5:1-18)

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and [i]where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.[/i] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (II COR 3:17-18)

[b]But again, James cites the very same word Paul uses, “liberty”, to describe the Commandments: “The Law of Liberty” by which we shall be judged[/b]

“But whoso looketh into the perfect [i]law of liberty,[/i] and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.” (JAM 1:25)

“So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the [i]law of liberty.[/i]” (JAM 2:12)

[b]And John is equally clear on the law.[/b]

And John cites Jesus as saying; [i]"If ye love me, keep my commandments.[/i]" (JOHN 14:16)



There are many other questions, but these will do for a start. Please, consider them in all seriousness.

Forrest[/color]


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/19 22:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hello...

I am amazed that this thread is continuing with such contention. As has already been pointed out (and mostly agreed upon), Peter equated Paul's epistles as SCRIPTURE (2 Peter 3:16). This implies that his epistles were holy and God inspired, which is also indicative of the definition provided by Paul in 2 Timothy 3:16. We also are certain that Paul was an Apostle chosen by God (rather than men).

How can this be questioned? This has been the foundation of the Church since, well, Christ resurrected (and the apostles wrote about it)!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/1/19 22:15Profile









 Re: Who Anointed Paul???


Hi Paul,

Quote:
Why aren't you applying the same concern to the undermining of Paul the Apostle?

Really, no biblical doctrine is in danger here, but [i]we may[/i] be in danger of losing contact with souls who are uncertain, and who need our brotherly love to pull them onto safer ground.

Quote:
Forensic is a good word choice.

Thanks, bro. ;-)

 2008/1/19 22:19
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Really, no biblical doctrine is in danger here, but we may be in danger of losing contact with souls who are uncertain, and who need our brotherly love to pull them onto safer ground.



No Biblical doctrine is in danger here??? How about the God-inspired testimony of the [i]man who wrote the book of Romans?[/i] I can't believe this, like Mike Balog said - this is practically unbelieveable. We shouldn't even be having this converation.

As far as the brotherly love to pull weaker believers unto safer ground, would you expect us to first sit them down and demonstrate by going word-for-word with a coldly calculated dissertation to defend against this satanic effort of debunking Paul? That's just what she wants. These forums are already filling up to the brim with empty discussions and fruitless debates that do not promote holiness in the lives of believers or a greater immersion in God's Word. And this thread would now try to destroy it altogether. When will we at last grow backbones and bodly stand for truth and not feel as though we have to "discuss" every straw topic in a pedantic and political manner. There needs to be a point where we draw the line.

Hear me, Paul doesn't need defending, God will defend him. God [i]has[/i] defended him, and will continue to do so long after you and I are dead, even to the end of the world. The Word of God is indestructible to man, but man destroys himself when he tampers with it.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/19 22:43Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Forest Fires

Quote:
I am also not underestimating the power of the evil one to deceive Paul, and hence Luke, or the Christians making the decision on which scriptures to include, and which to discard.



Nonsense. Again, who are you to make this incredible insinuation?

Quote:
I believe that the 11 Apostles were perfectly accurate BECAUSE they were hand picked and personally taught by Jesus, and breathed on by Him in his resurrected body.



More nonsense. Which is is truly? You keep contradicting yourself with this idea that you are merly trying to answer questions posed to you while simultaneously interjecting your suppositions and your agenda. There is so much here it seems impossible to even begin. Had shelved this wondering if it is was necessary ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Appeal to your patience with this, far too long I fear, but I don't know another way. Please, all the way to the end if you might indulge me.

(Bubbaguy)
Quote:
When Christians insist that every word in the Bible is true or none of it is trustworthy, i guess the word "lazy" comes to mind. If you start from this premise, it is soooo much easier to read the Bible. You don't have to give consideration to ANYTHING that doesn't agree, like geology. You don't have to rely upon Faith, because if all of the Bible is literally true, you don't need faith. and asking questions about things like evolution is impudent.

I think it takes more faith to believe if you see problems with the Bible, than if you hold that it was handed, word for word, to us from God. It is man's account of our striving to become reconciled with God. and as such, it is full of Truth and also has evidenced within it the imperfections of human beings.




That may be somewhat true if you are speaking in sweeping generalities but if you purport to apply that to those here who are disputing heretical hermeneutics and the like, you couldn't be farther from the truth. Rather, some of us dig down into the marrow of our souls wrestling with both it's wretchedness and essence of finding truth in the inward parts as they try and get at, to quote the maligned associate of Paul; [i]in which are some things hard to be understood,[/i].

Quote:
What he has said here about Paul has always bothered me. as has the doctrine of Grace by Faith alone. if a person has faith but produces a life of wretchedness, Jesus' word speaks against it. (pay attention to the fruits!!)

What are the fruits of this doctrine? Corruption! the shameful idea that while we go on sinning today, we can still repent tomorrow and all will be right between us and God. this is the fruit of Paul's corrupted religion.

Paul may well have been earnest and thought he was doing the work of God, but throughout his writings i hear his ego coming through. he believes fully in the saving Grace of Jesus, but it is Him (Paul) who is going to be the pivitol person because, without him (paul), all the wonderful works and testimony of Jesus would just fall by the wayside of history.



[i]God forbid![/i]

Rom 3:4, 3:6, 3:31, 6:2, 6:15, 7:7, 7:13, 9:14, 11:1, 11:11
1 Cor 6:15
Gal 2:17, 3:21, 6:14

You and Forrest alike are setting up yourselves as judges of the man's character and by way of that insinuating ... God knows what of his integrity. You want the crux of the indignation and outrage?, there you have it. Am not about to get into didactic nit picking over your still yet fallacious reasonings and parsing of the scriptures to fit your intellectual discard-met, still you slice and dice that which is acceptable and discard that which doesn't fit into the little scheme concocted in your head. We have traveled this road here in endless circles Bubba as you well know.

Went back and reread this in it's entirety as even my indignation aught to be re-examined and that it wasn't just an emotional-knee jerk reaction to what I was hearing.

To be sure, this was not an open and honest inquiry as it was purported to be or at best it certainly was confused and contradictory, know of no other way than to present it in it's own words ...

(Forrest)
Quote:
I simply want to discuss why God would have Paul contradict some things that Jesus said...is it merely contextual?

Is it appropriate for a man of God to 'be all things to all people'? That sounds like manpleasing, but it could be read differently.

Many things that the Catholic Church latched on to have to do with Paul.

His Hierarchy of Bishops and Elders; His unfortunate words against a women speaking in Church, when it was actually a Synagogue,(and Synagogues are very noisy places.)even though many women have spoken for God in the past. Still, Paul's words have been used against women for centuries...heavens, how many women have been killed for disagreeing with a man, much less a priest?

[b]I do not even in my website teach with authority...nor do I know who visits it, or whether they are male or female, since I don't ask for money, and hence can't know who comes there.[/b]

Since they are not my questions, but questions put to me, and to this august body, through me, because I would love to have the quotes to come back at these answers that are not from Paul, or Luke, Luke being suspect to some by virtue of his long friendship with Paul.

But oddly, everyone seeks to avoid the essential question in their outrage over 'an attack on Paul', when Paul is open to attack through what he said, as are the other Apostles, as well as you, me, and everyone who presumes to put Jesus' thoughts into descriptive passages.


The questions have been put forth to me, and I must answer them.

If I cannot get help from my brethern and sistern because they are too offended in me, then where am I to go?

These remarks to me or my attitude or behavior are illustrative of my very real life, and reactions, and are not recomendations or permissions given. It is how I live, in the way I must live.

But I would rather be answered, as I asked these questions, in all seriousness, and not from Paul.

Every answer I have is from Paul. If I get no others, I will have to toss Paul out, and I love the man and his works too much to want to do that.

But I do not have to agree with the societal constraints placed on the pagan society of the 1st Century by Paul. My altars are not set up to worship my god or goddess with sex, and I am too well broken, by Jesus, to worship money or power.

I need to agree with what Jesus taught, in Paul, and elsewhere. I don't mind in the least going by the Noahide Laws, plus modern convention for women old enough to be your mother or grandmother, and Jesus' love and mercy. Oddly, He does not demand near as much of me as you might do, being God, and knowing my heart.

Like all of the Christians out there that truly love Him, I am trying to learn to submit to Him, but I won't take your word for what I am to do if you cannot answer me outside of Paul. Because if Jesus and the other apostles didn't cover it, I am going to have to admit that Paul was in error.


And Paul is quite open about being a very faulty man, with a major pride problem. Having the same pride problem, and a huge thorn in my side to go with it, and understanding the very cosmopolitan Paul a little too well for my comfort, compared to the more earthy, and simplistic Apostles, like Peter and John, James and Matthew, who knew the Law of their fathers, and what Jesus taught them from an experiential point of view more than from an theoretical point of view, I can see how the Grace message resonates in our culture.

And since Paul is being questioned, inerrancy, or even the real belief in Paul's teachings won't do. So Gill's answer to my question won't do either.

And I have a lot more questions when the ones I first posed are answered, if anyone is willing to seriously answer them, and not make this a personal discussion.

The questions are seriously put forward.


I am asking questions about Paul, and only a few at a time, but I receive no true answers DOCUMENTED by Jesus or the 11 Apostles.

And now you know why I had to ask if Paul was not a false apostle, or merely a true commentator.

Because if Paul is not an Apostle, a lot of people are going to have to start taking Paul a tad less serious, and go back to Jesus.

At the moment, I can only consider Paul the greatest and best comentator on Scripture, Old and New Testament, and not an Apostle of God.

When the Bible was put together, it appears from this vantage point, having the entire book of the Bible, that the Christians of the time may have suppressed the true message of Jesus, and allowed in the Gospels of Matthew and John, and the non-Pauline epistles only where it supported or did not contradict Paul.

But I will be more than happy, and even relieved, if people will start answering the valid questions with supporting quotes that are not taken from Paul or Luke, since Luke was taught by Paul.

And yes, I will grant that Luke is a great historian of the Christian faith, his gospel is a great history of what was told by the all the others, but he is not God-Breathed upon.

And regretfully, I am expecting a firestorm from outraged Paulinites, but we are supposed to be Jesusites first.


Alas, Luke was taught, as far as we know, exclusively by Paul.

If Paul told it to Luke for the writing of Acts, it has no secondary witness, as Jesus and the 11 Apostles do.

I don't like putting Luke aside either, but we are not getting to Paul via Jesus, or the 11 Apostles, and their writings.

And yes, I am asking EVERYONE to look and see if Paul can be supported, point by point, solely through the 11 Apostles, because only they are not suspect.

I would also like to disallow 2nd Peter, as there are doubts about it's author.


If you are not supporting Paul's writings from Scriptures given by other than Paul, Paul's message of Grace through Faith, as well as his explanations of doctrine, and commands on organization, and Christian behavior, could well be a false doctrine.

It only takes one thing being unsupported in Paul to make it tainted, and thus, false and misleading.



Now we are to believe that this whole progression is one of answering questions being put to Forest while at the same time she is rejecting this and that, setting the parameters, framing the questions and statements with all kinds of rhetorical qualifiers and lastly that there is no agenda of her own rejection of Paul with a whole host of accusations and pragmatic reasonings? Poppycock! Malarkey!

Paul's pride, Paul's 'ego', '[i]the very cosmopolitan Paul a little too well for my comfort, compared to the more earthy, and simplistic Apostles, like Peter and John, James and Matthew[/i]' and Bubba's [i]'Paul may well have been earnest and thought he was doing the work of God, but throughout his writings i hear his ego coming through.[/i] Again, just who the hell do you people think you are? This is just the most incredulous and high minded nonsense, are you book critics or are you reading Dr. Seuss by mistake? You bet the tables are turned now. I would champion and have gone far out of the way here to stop the personal effrontery that often accompanies this space with the Brethren going after each other in this manner, but you have brought a reproach upon a mans character and integrity, fueled foolish notions on the unsuspecting and newer, weaker of those either amongst us or peering in from afar and think that it might go unchallenged, nay, even anticipating the outrage and going right on ahead with it anyway ...

No. This needs the strongest rebuke possible. Tell me, just what is it that makes anyone truly believable? Is it not in the very essence of character and integrity?

[i]The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.[/i] Joh 7:46

Is it being 'nice' so that we may contrast 'Paul' with Jesus or the rest?

[i]You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.[/i] Mat 12:34 ESV

The same 'cosmopolitan Paul' who turned on a dime and rejected a lifetimes worth of religious fervor calling it [i]Rubbish[/i], who anointed Paul? What kind of question is this to begin with? Is he not believable? Does his integrity and character get put to the test by a handful of wordlings, don't begin to tell me that this is not what is under assault here for that is exactly what is going on with this little mathematical questionnaire. To attempt to put Paul up against the rest by qualifying it with the 'breathed upon' is sheer foolishness ...

[i]1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were [b]I or they[/b], so we preach, and so ye believed. [/i] 1Co 15:5

There is your answer from the self effacing and self debasing Paul, the least, the wretched man, the foolish man, the man who gave his very soul and his own body to ...

[i]2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?[/i]

Boasting? Ego? Tell me it is not your own boasting and ego to challenge one of the greatest hearts to ever utter words and malign his incredible character. He gave us his [i]bowels[/i] as it were and you would make mental hopscotch of it by playing fast and loose, flippant and absurdly disrespectful ... not a game? Whatever the intention, that is what is being made plain enough.

The whole construct of this idea in piting the apostles one against another, though they each independantly had their own work to do and speak as we have it is just increduolous. Earlier Ron brought forth these points;

[i]3.) Neither in the things themselves, nor in the way of their delivery or revelation, is there any advantage of the one sort of writings above the other. The things written in the epistles proceed from the same wisdom, the same grace, the same love, with the things which he spoke with his own mouth in the days of his flesh, and are of the same divine veracity, authority, and efficacy. The revelation which he made by his Spirit is no less divine and immediate from himself, than what he spoke unto his disciples on the earth. To distinguish between these things, on any of these accounts, is intolerable folly.

The writings of the evangelists are full unto their proper ends and purposes.

The pretence itself is wholly false; for there are as many pregnant testimonies given unto this truth in one alone of the evangelists as in any other book of the New Testament, — namely, in the book of John.[/i] ~ Owen

The 'canonization party'. Just what do you honestly think these men were about doing, like yourselves, finding nice 'fit's' to a popularity contest or appeasing the masses when the very Scriptures themselves are [i]demanding[/i] sheer honesty and integrity? You would like to speculate that this was not the very criteria for deciding that which was inerantly true versus that which was heretical. I defy your logic and reasoning that it was anything other than that. The reason we do believe in the whole counsel and the inerrancy of the scriptures as given, codified and endued by and through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is because they are self proclaiming. Their character, earnestness and integrity are self explanatory. If you are finding trouble with something that doesn't fit your paradigm then the onus is on [i]you[/i] to come under them, not they being put to your test of logistics. I must ask what does it say to the character and integrity that finds ourselves in the post of judges without humility. It is certainly one thing to say "I do not understand" and quite another to make it seem so all the while properly preparred to bring a defense, that is an agenda, not a disciple, one who is a [i]learner[/i].


If these are truly your questions ...

Quote:
Is it appropriate for a man of God to 'be all things to all people'? That sounds like manpleasing, but it could be read differently.



Most certainly it could be read differently as that was the intention in the first place, not to be retched from it's context. That's not a question, it's a veiled accusation and not worthy of a response.

Quote:
Many things that the Catholic Church latched on to have to do with Paul.



Which means squat. Its no different than discarding Jesus Christ because the crusades got it all wrong or taking the Koran's point of view because they did likewise.

Quote:
His Hierarchy of Bishops and Elders;



Problem being ... ? That his was a continuing role of establishment as the early church began, there is nothing in this despite all the abuses thereafter.

Quote:
His unfortunate words against a women speaking in Church, when it was actually a Synagogue,(and Synagogues are very noisy places.)even though many women have spoken for God in the past. Still, Paul's words have been used against women for centuries...heavens, how many women have been killed for disagreeing with a man, much less a priest?



Now we get to the heart of the matter and your prerogative, namely "unfortunate". It comes down to the same old, repeated agenda that you have fostered here in the past, that you just do not like hearing what has been stated and rebel against the spiritual and natural consequences that are afforded you. You will not accept your role as a woman and wish to transgress authority as it is given by God and to your dislike expressed through Paul. Though he takes us back to established principles of created beings in Adam and Eve you would wedge the wisdom of this world, the feminism and liberal casting off of your own makeup to supplant and usurp the way things are supposed to be. And it is a sad commentary on where we find ourselves in this day and age, woman lording over men, disputing with them and setting themselves up as equals in their very DNA which is contrary and decidedly purposeful by God Himself. Your argument is there and it grieves profoundly that the very beauty and attributes given to women are cast back behind the back so that if many had their druthers would be out riding bare breasted slaughtering pigs with spears in their contorted and perverted understandings, as they once did. Today, the only difference is in more subdued policy and the strange overlooking of what morals we do have left, one would be arrested in most places short of San Francisco ... Take it harshly, chuck it in the garbage can, I couldn't care less except for those here peering into these matters. Am using some hyperbole to press the point home, that inwardly there is still so much rebellion that the out-workings of it are all around us, in subtle ways and in more obvious. "[i]Paul's words have been used against women for centuries[/i]" and women have used Paul's words against intention as you yourself have done, so just where does the fault lie? We are full circle back to blaming the messenger, why not apply the same logic to ...

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.


What's the difference? Jesus can be 'cut some slack' in context but Paul is berated? I cannot for certain and will not give anything but a 'perhaps-ed' opinion on the matter, but I am well convinced that Paul laid down these rules for very good reason and I do find it highly ironic that too often some women are proving the very point of the matter, that they ought to be silent ... Again just frank opinion but I have to wonder if some of the very disputings, similar to these here are what propelled him to lay down this 'law' in the first place, that things were getting out of hand, that women were usurping their roles, not that he set a precedence before a predicament.

Lastly, there is often a coming to the rescue after someone starts a fire in the kitchen, complains of the heat and then expects someone else to come clean up the mess. You just cannot have it both ways. If you are going to bring the heat don't come in her defending the fire-starter with whatever predicaments one finds themselves in, it has nothing to do with the situation at hand and is just as much an undermining and grievous trick to make things personal when the fire got started and the full capacity is suddenly changed after the fire extinguishers are brought in to put out the flames.

Even if it does undermine somewhat of what has been said here and I truly hate this age of ... political correctness and forced niceties, it may have more to do with the constraints placed by no fault of anyone on their own, just the combined maladjusted spirituality of the day coupled with the misconstruing of words and intentions of those things brought forth in this setting ... I must therefore digress to the [i]what I am not saying[/i] business. It dishevels me to even have to bring any of this up, the irony of even Paul's' [i]boasting[/i] which he called foolish and I likewise, but if anything there be of a track record here it is my profound love of the Brethren of all stripes and genders. If I am to be truly honest, my weakness is with women and their sheer beauty. All of their makeup (not of the face type). If I was not a sinful man I must wonder just how differently the collusion and dance with the flesh, the inherent danger of [i]looking[/i] might be. You must understand that I have a even higher respect for women as they [i]are[/i], as they are created and for the Christian woman ... Oh can you not see it? The higher nobility, the very pure essence of ...

Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.


Let me just say that this has been wrecked by both men and woman alike. All the pure elements. Abuse and manipulation on the one hand and usurping on the other. I know this is well redundant but there is a power in silence and contentment, in fewer words that can cut through the hardest heart from a woman that a man will never be able to mimic. It is Gods [i]way![/i] Why do we not rather champion it and uphold it, foster it and appeal to it in it's incredible spiritual logic? Rather than buttressing up against it, repelling and rebelling, accusing Paul or anyone else for that matter of these incredible, profound attributes given by God. Look again to the women of the scriptures, how they interacted with the Lord, with the disciples, with each other. What of their character and integrity, conduct? These are the things that ultimately matter and spell us before this world gone mad, we will never be any kind of witness against it nor for the Lord without them.


1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/19 23:00Profile









 Re:

First I need to say, my Outlook Express is not working. The emails are now all blank. I don't know what has caused this and I cannot send any.

Forrest - this reply you have given here is not what I was just told by you tonight. Yes, I did get your last email and am very tempted to post it here. You said you would post 'that' here - not that you had a good anti-Paul - anti-innerancy diatribe to poison folks with.

You can think I am the meanest person on earth - but DECEPTION and against "His" people is not something I will protect. You have not been honest with anyone here and that is all I have to say on this issue.

What education ? - is a right question to ask.

A simple Google Search on "inherently or innerancy of Scriptures" would have been ALL you would have needed to do. You have no "education" except for trying to find more on what you have "decided to believe". Before this research you've posted on this thread - what education did you have and how do you get Ordained without Biblical Education - when you can't even quote Scripture???

I tried earlier to post on this thread that the argument between innerancy and the other views has gone on since .......... and that it is like the Calvinism vs. Arminianism or other views.... it's all CHOICE !!!!!!!

THAT is why the Greek word for "heresy" is "Choice". That is exactly why He used that particular word and you've proved it to me all the more of why GOD chose that particular word for heresy.

This "love" stuff needs discernment. I'm all for LOVE - but is it that Paul preaches so hard on HERESY that you've desired to take him from us?

This whole "Rev" thing is the point. If you were a "babe" or "asking for babes" - this still should have been answerable by yourself and "google" if need be - but you didn't want [b]your[/b] questions answered --- you admitted that.

This was an attack on this Body. PaulWest was right, just for one.

You "will follow JESUS" ?

Another Jesus - yes - because "error breeds error" every time and since I've known you - that slippery slope has taken a very sharp dive now.

I said a few weeks ago on here, on another thread, that our Love for Him and His Word must even exceed our love for "brothers and sisters".

I begged you since this started - remember that.

Here I stand. You're in our prayers and broken hearts and whomever you're in contact with.

 2008/1/19 23:06









 Re:


Quote:
I believe that the 11 Apostles were perfectly accurate BECAUSE they were hand picked and personally taught by Jesus, and breathed on by Him in his resurrected body.





Forrest, I must say, you should not be in ministry at all, or even teaching.

Do you not understand, have you not read the whole Bible.


Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 2008/1/19 23:20
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Incredulous

Oh, there is something very sinister indeed here ... Either you yourself are being sucked right into it Forrest or the devil himself is writing these little trivialities ...

Quote:
The Road to Damascus

In Chapter Nine of the Book of Acts, Luke, a Physician and Saul’s traveling companion, recounts how Saul encounters the Risen Lord Jesus Christ while on the “Road to Damascus” to persecute the Church there.

“And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.” (ACTS 9:3-8)

Curiously, the phrase “kick against the pricks” is found nowhere else in scripture.



Intention: Suspicion. What pray else is not found nowhere else in the scripture ... [i]and Judas went and hanged himself[/i], must not have happened according to this logic.

Quote:

The phrase this “Lord” speaks ...



What? The whole of this is already under an assumption and a sinister insinuation ...

...
Quote:
to Saul was written four hundred and fifty years earlier by the Greek poet, Aeschylus, in his mythological work "Prometheus Bound". Here, the Titan Oceanus says,

Such punishment, Prometheus, is the wage.
But thou, not yet brought low by suffering,
To what thou hast of ill would'st add far worse.
Therefore, while thou hast me for schoolmaster,
Thou shalt not kick against the pricks; the more
That an arch-despot who no audit dreads
Rules by his own rough will.

According to ancient Greek mythology, Prometheus was the rebellious god that brought fire to man. This displeased Zeus, who chained him to a rock where he suffered unimaginable torments for the rest of eternity.

Oceanus was the ancient Greeks’ Titan of the world’s saltwater bodies (seas and oceans). He is not to be confused with the ancient Greek god of the Mediterranean, Prometheus. Statues of Oceanus depict the upper half of his body as a muscular human torso, arms and a head adorned by a long beard and horns. His lower half consists of a scaly, fish-like, coiling tail. Please note that this particular titan holds a fish in one hand and a serpent in the other.



So tie it to some deity and use it to undermine the scriptures;

[b]it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks;[/b] or "to resist me", as the Arabic version renders it; and which is the sense of the phrase; it is a proverbial expression, taken from beasts that are goaded, who kick against the goads or pricks, and hurt themselves the more thereby; and Christ uses it, suggesting hereby, that should Saul go on to persecute him and his people, to oppose his Gospel ...

Yeah, Gill again.

Quote:
The Lord appears to Saul as a “light from heaven”. But the Lord God of Heaven is not the only being that may sometimes appear as a being of light, as Saul elsewhere states,

“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” (II COR 11:14)



Oh the conspiracy and plotting, this is evil undermining from a devious mind...

Quote:
Throughout our Lord’s earthly ministry He gave sight to the blind. Yet, according to Saul Jesus took away his sight.



And the Lord made, who was it again, deaf for a season ... ?

Quote:
There is also a contradiction between two conflicting reports from the witnesses surrounding Saul on the road,



No. This is pure rubbish. Whoever this is asking these "questions" is up to no good and you ought to be able to see clearly through it. Veiled or not so veiled attempts like these are not stated in mind to an answer but towards an agenda, there is no getting around it.

Quote:
“And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.” (ACTS 9:7)

“And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” (ACTS 22:9)

In the first description of Saul’s event on the road, the men hear a voice but see nothing. In the second description, the men see a light, but hear nothing.



Misappropriated.

[b]hearing a voice[/b], but seeing no [b]man[/b]
[b]saw indeed the [u]light[/u][/b] .... but they heard not the voice [b]of him that spake to me[/b]

This is not difficult to understand. But the 'author' here is contradicting his\her own self. In the first account, it is not stated they saw 'nothing' but [i][b]no man[/b][/i]. In the second, hearing a voice and hearing a voice intelligibly are two different things ...

[i]The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.[/i] Joh 12:29

Quote:
Thus, during the early hours of his conversion,

1. Saul hears a voice speaking the very same phrase, word for word, spoken by an ancient Greek titan nearly four-and-a-half centuries earlier;



1. The devil insinuates that there is something of a comparison.

Quote:
2. Saul sees a brilliant light which he later admits could very well have been the Devil;



This would be hilarious if it wasn't so laced with ... Forrest, is the devil writing you love letters? Honestly, I am not now taking shot's at you but whoever this is needs to work on his polish and disguise, this isn't even clever trying to tie the two together ...

Quote:
3. Two conflicting reports emerge concerning the events that transpired that fateful night.



Ah, no. Not conflicting ...


Quote:
It is improbable that our Omniscient Lord would speak, word-for-word, the words of a pagan deity, such as Oceanus, to Saul the Apostle since God’s says of pagan gods,

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.” (EXO 20:3-6)



Twisting the intentions, retching the scriptures from their context ... pathetic ...

Quote:
But this is not the only place in the Bible where Saul communes with pagan deity.



Communes! Now that's clever ... :-o

Quote:
At Mars’ Hill, he equates the Father with the pagan “Unknown God” of the Romans.



Please ...

Quote:
“Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.” (ACTS 17:22-23)

Later on in his epistles he calls Him the “invisible God”. ...



Sigh ...

At this point it is just check out time. None of this is questioning with any intent at an answer. It's springs and motivations are sinister and of no purpose other than to bring Paul and the scriptures into disrepute. If the rest of this follows along the same lines, then what is being presented is fit for the dung hill, the rubbish heap, the very fires of the pit that it came from. That you Forrest, would bring these in here as serious inquiry and your own misgivings and hypocritical murmurings as you continue to side step your own logical deductions before you even hear a response ...

This is isn't sincerity and I would far rather take you at your word, but that is not in any way what you are conveying. This is an axe to grind, not a sword to sharpen. I pray you loose yourself from the bondage of this nonsense.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/20 1:23Profile





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