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 Re: Who Anointed Paul???



Beloved brethren,

I am slightly surprised by your impatience.

On p1, enid pointed this out from Forrest:

Quote:
'And I am asking because I am asked these questions...'

Is the way you have treated Forrest - as one whose previously exceptional intellectual capabilities are now significantly stressed by her disability - really helpful to her cause?

We all know Peter said:

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [i]be[/i] ready [u]always[/u] to [i]give[/i] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:


Is this kind of answer supposed to be merely personal testimony, or might it be [i]expected[/i] that scripture be brought to bear?


If you believe scripture supports scripture, has any one of you really [u]put your mind[/u] to answering [i]the challenge[/i], which any one of us could face from an enquirer?

Surely, there [i]are[/i] some answers in scripture, and Forrest herself is not actually disputing Paul's ministry. The disputation is coming [u]from outside[/u], and yet you seem to be attacking the questions, rather than [i]answering them[/i] in support of our sister's request.

To my ear, some of these questions are coming from a source which is [i]unreasonable[/i] - maybe even demonic. It may be that there [u]is no[/u] response which will be accepted by those asking. But even this can be elicited through prayerful consideration of how such enquiries [i]should[/i] be met and fielded by a Christian.

I for one, was hoping for more from you, when I saw the thread's title.

Now, I'm backing out.

 2008/1/18 12:01









 Re:

Dorcas, thank you for the Tyndale referal. i will look into it. bub

 2008/1/18 12:03
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2772
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
your outrage is too,, tooo much. over the top and sounds like you are expressing it in this manner because you don't have a good response to Forrest's point.



I disagree with this comment. The thoughts and questionings brought up in this thread that strike at the nature of divine inspiration need to be dealt with harshly. I for one appreciate Mike's boldness in speaking out the way he did. Although I don't know Mike beyond this forum, I have seen him bare his heart in this place and I believe he is an Israelite in whom there is no guile.

He expressed what was in my own heart on this matter though I lack the boldness to say it. As I reflect on this my thought is to excuse my lack of boldness with a cloak of humility or diffidence but in reality it is probably just a lack of faith on my part. Anyway, the insinuations made in this thread are dangerous as brother Paul has pointed out, they need to be handled with discipline and Mike, being a moderator, is the proper one to do so.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2008/1/18 13:07Profile
Lowly
Member



Joined: 2007/10/13
Posts: 41


 Re:

Paul said in Philippians:

"WHO BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:
BUT MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: AND BEING FOUND IN FASHION AS A MAN, HE HUMBLED HIMSELF, AND BECAME OBEDIENT UNTO DEATH, EVEN THE DEATH OF THE CROSS.
WHEREFORE GOD ALSO HATH HIGHLY EXALTED HIM, AND GIVEN HIM A NAME WHICH IS ABOVE EVERY NAME: "

IN JOHN 13 IT IS WRITTEN:

"JESUS KNOWING THAT THE FATHER HAD GIVEN ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS, AND THAT HE WAS COME FROM GODK, AND WENT TO GOD;
HE RISETH FROM SUPPER, AND LAID ASIDE HIS GARMENTS; TOOK A TOWEL, AND GIRDED HIMSELF. AFTER THAT HE POURETH WATER INTO A BASON, AND BEGAN TO WASH THE DISCIPLES FEET................."

Here we see He made Himself of no reputation, became a servant............Paul told us to have this mind in us that was in Christ Jesus.................Jesus told us He He had done these things as an example to us, and that we should do as He had done...............

Let us not be timid or draw back from contending for the faith, and the precious anointed Word of God!

In His amazing love,
Lowly
_______________________________________________
"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and you shall find rest unto your souls."


 2008/1/18 13:36Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Alert

Quote:
Anyway, the insinuations made in this thread are dangerous



This is my greatest concern. What is being written here, surmised here, insinuated here is totally lethal. It is like slipping strychnine into a baby's milk bottle under the guise of a vitamin supplement. Many brothers and sisters here are strong enough by the grace of God to withstand this poison; others are not. We need to understand that if any part of the Bible can be proved speculative, if any claim of Paul may be deemed spurious, the whole entire structure collapses, as every single book is a main support beam for the Whole. The walls, the ceiling literally all come down. The unguarded tower of our faith is now a refuge for bandits, for usurping powers in high places, and the believer will very soon meet with absolute destruction from the inside out. The jackels will come to lodge in the inner chambers.

Once left to cultivate, this "Hath God said" bacterium will proliferate in the Petri dish of the mind and cause immeasurable damage. Such is the disease of liberal theology. Satan, from the beginning of Eden, has struck mainly with one particular blow: "Hath God said?" Eve took the bait, and so successful was the devil that he tried the same coup de grace with God Himself in the wilderness. Imagine this! How lethal, how effective, imagine how much weight Satan places upon the successful influence of doubting God's Word. It is his ultimate trump card; it is his nuclear bomb when all else fails. If he can't get a believer to fall through sex, money and spiritual pride, he pulls out the ancient ace of all aces: "Hath God said?"

We here at SermonIndex need to see this quiet onslaught for what it is. I can't stop thinking that someone, somewhere has stumbled upon (providentially, of course) this thread and because of their weakened and susceptible condition, unknowingly acquired a strain of this bacteria. Infected in a moment, a colony of doubt has begun its growth using rationale and logic as its oxygen and pet convictions and wounded pride as ideal temperature.

May the moderators provide an antibiotic in the wisdom of God.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/18 14:21Profile









 Re:

PaulWest stated:

"We need to understand that if any part of the Bible can be proved speculative, if any claim of Paul may be deemed spurious, the whole entire structure collapses, as every single book is a main support beam for the Whole."

See, this is where i'm not getting it. If you buy a book and find several typos or words left out (this is a very common occurance for me) you don't throw the whole thing away. as many SI participants know, i believe in evolution and view the Genesis account and Noah's flood story in the same way i take in the Parables of Jesus. There is lots to learn that the authors intended to communicate, but whether these stories are factual or not doesn't say anything about the rest of the Bible or the lessons the stories teach.

Truth stands out for those who have eyes that seek it. And the Truth of Jesus was prophesized, came to be, and is recorded in the Bible. Whether or not the Bible is inerrant (and i don't believe that it is) says nothing about the Truth of our Salvation. because when you understand how this salvation works, you know intuitively that it is true. when you understand how gravity works, can someone convince you that your understanding is wrong?? when you understand how love works and how hatred and greed are incompatible with love, can someone convince you that this is wrong, that hatred can be a good thing?!?

The Truths that Jesus presents us with are embedded in our souls (by our Creator) and we recognize these truths for their universal value and correctness. So, when Jesus says "love your enemies" you know in your heart that this is the right thing to attempt to do in life, but also you know that this is something we need to strive for: i don't know anyone who has accomplished this, except Jesus.

If your response to me is "how can you know what Jesus said and did if you don't believe the Bible is inerrant?" my response would be that there are concurrent accounts written by several people who clearly are trying to present things truthfully. While I trust them to get most of it right, i also will compare and contrast these several accounts and look for agreements and disagreements.

Folks we have been given souls, brains and the sense of right and wrong for good reasons: God expects us to use them.

When Christians insist that every word in the Bible is true or none of it is trustworthy, i guess the word "lazy" comes to mind. If you start from this premise, it is soooo much easier to read the Bible. You don't have to give consideration to ANYTHING that doesn't agree, like geology. You don't have to rely upon Faith, because if all of the Bible is literally true, you don't need faith. and asking questions about things like evolution is impudent.

I think it takes more faith to believe if you see problems with the Bible, than if you hold that it was handed, word for word, to us from God. It is man's account of our striving to become reconciled with God. and as such, it is full of Truth and also has evidenced within it the imperfections of human beings.

bub

 2008/1/18 16:48
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I think it takes more faith to believe if you see problems with the Bible, than if you hold that it was handed, word for word, to us from God.



I haven't been given any reason thus far to embrace the contrary. Can you show me a problem or an error or anything at all that would allow me [i]not[/i] to believe the Bible is inerrant? I would gladly concede to the truth of emphirical science if the facts disproved the Bible's absolutism, but all I have experienced thus far is scientific substantiation.

Attempts to disprove scripture validity via scientific contradiction (or any other contradiction) is really nothing new to Christianity; the only recourse for the skeptics to do now is try to malign the testimonial authenticity of those [i]in the Bible itself[/i] (like Paul) who upheld Bible inerrancy. Blighting Paul is the key to demolishing all scriptural authority, for Paul himself upholds it in no uncertain terms. Trying to disparage Jesus Christ won't work too easily with believers; the next in line is Paul, and the enemy well knows the diabolical worth in decimating Paul's words, his testimony, his anointing. Take out Paul, and the walls simply come down, the New Testament implodes from the inside out, and this is why Satan as of late is having such a heyday with him. Paul is despised by the liberal theologian.

From his own mouth:

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, [i]and oppositions of science falsely so called[/i], which some professing have erred from the faith.." (I Tim 6:20-21)

If science cannot successfully prevail upon the integrity of the Word (I only say this because you mention 'geology'), what else is left? Discredit the man who said it, and thus nullify the testimony? Do we have personal convictions that are irreconciliable to God? The offended human intelligence will go to great lengths to keep itself afloat.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/18 17:05Profile









 Re:


Hi Paul,

I have not read every post in this thread, but I don't think anyone is being asked to stop believing Paul is who he claimed, or, was claimed for him by others in the New Testament record. The gospel was originally preached from the Old Testament scriptures.

Quote:
Take out Paul, and the walls simply come down.

Which walls?... I trust you don't mean the walls of salvation.

 2008/1/18 17:19
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
[i]I have not read every post in this thread[/i], but I don't think anyone is being asked to stop believing Paul is who he claimed, or, was claimed for him by others in the New Testament record.



Hi Dorcas,

Please read every post and come back. Thanks.
Quote:
Which walls?...



The walls I spoke about in my second-to-last post. Not salvation, of course.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/18 17:23Profile









 Re:

Quote:
PaulWest wrote:
This is my greatest concern. What is being written here, surmised here, insinuated here is totally lethal. It is like slipping strychnine into a baby's milk bottle under the guise of a vitamin supplement. Many brothers and sisters here are strong enough by the grace of God to withstand this poison; others are not. We need to understand that if any part of the Bible can be proved speculative, if any claim of Paul may be deemed spurious, the whole entire structure collapses, as every single book is a main support beam for the Whole. The walls, the ceiling literally all come down. The unguarded tower of our faith is now a refuge for bandits, for usurping powers in high places, and the believer will very soon meet with absolute destruction from the inside out. The jackels will come to lodge in the inner chambers.

Once left to cultivate, this "Hath God said" bacterium will proliferate in the Petri dish of the mind and cause immeasurable damage. Such is the disease of liberal theology. Satan, from the beginning of Eden, has struck mainly with one particular blow: "Hath God said?" Eve took the bait, and so successful was the devil that he tried the same coup de grace with God Himself in the wilderness. Imagine this! How lethal, how effective, imagine how much weight Satan places upon the successful influence of doubting God's Word. It is his ultimate trump card; it is his nuclear bomb when all else fails. If he can't get a believer to fall through sex, money and spiritual pride, he pulls out the ancient ace of all aces: "Hath God said?"




May I say, that this is the heart and soul of why I couldn't decide whether to respond or not.

Being from one of our own - meaning, one who I love in Christ - I felt the men could handle this just fine.

When the Unitarian attacks came, most of the men were away in October - but they're all here now - PTL.

Sis, what Paul West wrote here is what has been troubling me the most and he nailed it, right on the head. That's how I'm built. I see how these heresies affect the unstable and young in Christ.

There have definitely been sufficient answers on this thread.

We either believe that the early Church would have thrown Paul's letters in the garbage and Luke's or God would Preserve them for us for about 2000 years, with many evidences of fragments to full manuscripts. If we rip out 14 to 15 books out of our N.T., how do we explain that to 2000 years of scholarship and Christians and unbelievers in this day?

If you posed one question about one verse or teaching at a time, it probably would have gone smoother. Nonetheless, with all the verses posted on this thread, we either believe in Divine Inspiration or we don't. Our Choice!



2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 2008/1/18 17:27





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