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 Re: Who anointed Paul???

[color=993300]Brother Phillip, you know I love you, so do not take this personally.

Every word you have written is either taken from Paul's writings, or supports a gospel of 'Paul', as if his words were more important that Jesus' word's, or the 11 Apostles, who were taught by Jesus, and anointed directly by Jesus, when He breathed on them after His resurrection.

Without support of what Paul has said by the Gospels, by Jesus, Matthew, John, James, and Peter, Paul is preaching on his own understanding of Christianity.

I am not saying Paul was wrong in all counts, but I don't see all that Paul said supported even here on SI EXCEPT by quotes from Paul.

If you are not supporting Paul's writings from Scriptures given by other than Paul, Paul's message of Grace through Faith, as well as his explanations of doctrine, and commands on organization, and Christian behavior, could well be a false doctrine.

It only takes one thing being unsupported in Paul to make it tainted, and thus, false and misleading.

I am asking questions about Paul, and only a few at a time, but I receive no true answers DOCUMENTED by Jesus or the 11 Apostles.

There are a lot of Christians in the world that place their hope for eternity in Christ by their belief in Him, and only their belief. But belief alone is not enough.

The demons believe in Christ, and fear Him. But they have no salvation for their belief, and there are millions attending Christian Churches that consider themselves safe merely because of their belief in Christ as their Saviour.

Faith alone not enough, if we believe in and trust in Jesus as our Saviour, since He himself said, 'that whomever believed on Him, and confessed it with his mouth would be saved'. John 14:6

Well, Jesus also said, 'If ye love me, keep my commandments'. John 14:15.

You know all this, but a good proportion of the world is being taught from Paul alone, and too many people reverence Paul's word's more than Jesus' words, or the 11 Apostle's words.[/color]

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Again:

Who anointed Paul???"

Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Paul is called chosen because Christ had selected him, as he did his other apostles, for their service.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 3:7-8 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;


Christinyou wrote:
crsschk, are you saying that Pauls Gospel is the same as the old testament gospel? If so, why was it necessary for Jesus Christ to set him apart and teach Paul this particular Gospel of Grace through Faith being born again of Incorruptable Seed of God of the Father? If Paul had this Gospel from the old testament why did Jesus Christ have to reveal it to Paul?



[color=993300]This is exactly my point![/color]

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Paul's gospel is completely different from the Gospel of Moses and even The Gospel of Jesus Christ offered to the House of Israel, who were His own and they received Him not. Paul went to them first and they would not hear or see, then he was sent to the Gentile who would hear.



[color=993300]This is a very dangerous statement. PLEASE be careful.[/color]

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Acts 28:23-29 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word,

Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

That is why God gave Paul permission to call the revelation given to him as "My Gospel".



[color=993300]Hmmm....and where did GOD say this??? And if Paul told it to Luke for the writing of Acts, it has no secondary witness, as Jesus and the 11 Apostles do.[/color]

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:



[color=993300] All this is Paul speaking...not anyone else.[/color]


Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Jesus was the seed of David by Mary, but He was raised according to Paul's Gospel, Not anyone else until it was given to Paul and he revealed it to the world.

That we might separate the old from the new, praise God.



[color=993300]This sounds like heresy to me...and a lie of the Devil. Sorry, but it does![/color]

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Old things have passed away and behold all things have become new.

Separating the Soul from the spirit of Satan, and given a new Spirit of Christ in you. The Holy Spirit now in us not just with us. This is completely different from the old testament.

This will probably cause a great gulf and explosion in the body, but I don't see anyone born again in the old testament. I don't see Christ in anyone "the hope of Glory". I see Paul fighting his whole ministry given him by Jesus Christ to present this Gospel and reveal The new way of salvation. Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:5-13 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Did they have His rest? Do we have His rest?

2 Timothy 2:8-26 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Sorry but I had to ask.

In Christ: Phillip



[color=993300]And now you know why I had to ask if Paul was not a false apostle, or merely a true commentator.

Because if Paul is not an Apostle, a lot of people are going to have to start taking Paul a tad less serious, and go back to Jesus.

At the moment, I can only consider Paul the greatest and best comentator on Scripture, Old and New Testament, and not an Apostle of God.

When the Bible was put together, it appears from this vantage point, having the entire book of the Bible, that the Christians of the time may have suppressed the true message of Jesus, and allowed in the Gospels of Matthew and John, and the non-Pauline epistles only where it supported or did not contradict Paul.

But I will be more than happy, and even relieved, if people will start answering the valid questions with supporting quotes that are not taken from Paul or Luke, since Luke was taught by Paul.

And yes, I will grant that Luke is a great historian of the Christian faith, his gospel is a great history of what was told by the all the others, but he is not God-Breathed upon.

And regretfully, I am expecting a firestorm from outraged Paulinites, but we are supposed to be Jesusites first.

Blessings,

Forrest[/color]



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Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/17 18:38Profile
ChrisJD
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 Re:

Hi everyone.


Forrest,



I appologise if this has been addressed already, but doesn't Paul have the commendation of the Lord Jesus Christ in Acts chapter 9?


[b][color=660033]Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [/color][/b]



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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/17 19:07Profile
ChrisJD
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Posts: 2895
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 Re:

Also Forrest,


"...the 11 Apostles, who were taught by Jesus, and anointed directly by Jesus, when He breathed on them after His resurrection."


After seeing that the Holy Spirit was poured out upon those he was speaking to, hearing them speak with tounges, the Apostle Peter said in Acts chapter 10:


"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"



[i]...which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we[/i]



On the Day of Pentecost, when, after having recieved the Holy Spirit also, and speaking with other tongues, Peter said


"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."




[i]...he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear[/i]


This they had recieved, which the Lord Jesus spoke of as the promise of the Father, after waiting as he had also told them, to be endued with power from on high. And by that they preached and were His witnesses.



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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/17 19:23Profile
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 Re: Who anointed Paul???

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Also Forrest,


"...the 11 Apostles, who were taught by Jesus, and anointed directly by Jesus, when He breathed on them after His resurrection."


After seeing that the Holy Spirit was poured out upon those he was speaking to, hearing them speak with tounges, the Apostle Peter said in Acts chapter 10:

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

[i]...which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we[/i]

On the Day of Pentecost, when, after having recieved the Holy Spirit also, and speaking with other tongues, Peter said "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

[i]...he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear[/i]

This they had recieved, which the Lord Jesus spoke of as the promise of the Father, after waiting as he had also told them, to be endued with power from on high. And by that they preached and were His witnesses.




[color=993300]

Dear Chris,

Alas, Luke was taught, as far as we know, exclusively by Paul.

If Paul told it to Luke for the writing of Acts, it has no secondary witness, as Jesus and the 11 Apostles do.

I don't like putting Luke aside either, but we are not getting to Paul via Jesus, or the 11 Apostles, and their writings.

And yes, I am asking EVERYONE to look and see if Paul can be supported, point by point, solely through the 11 Apostles, because only they are not suspect.

I would also like to disallow 2nd Peter, as there are doubts about it's author.

This will allow for a PURE proving of the Gospel according to Paul. And I state again, I want it to be proved true.

Blessings,

Forrest[/color]


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Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/17 20:18Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
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 Re:

Quote:
Hi Compton, I was speaking on this wise about 6 months ago, and u and many ripped me...



Hi ejg,

I am sorry for this. I do not remember the occasion you are talking about but I wish I had conducted myself better to you. Forgive me.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2008/1/17 20:20Profile
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 Re:

Hi Forrest,


"Alas, Luke was taught, as far as we know, exclusively by Paul."



Why do you say this?


In the opening of Luke's account of the Gospel he seems to me to indicate that he was taught what he believed by the Apostles, or at least had knowledge of what they believed.


He writes:


"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."


- Luke chapter 1 verse 1-4(KJV)



[b][color=000000]Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word[/color][/b]



What are you basing your statement upon apart from this?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/17 20:41Profile
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 Re:

Here is something that the Puritan writer John Owen wrote concerning certain objections to the doctrine of imputed righteousness in his day. I know that we are not discussing imputed righteousness here but he makes some good points concerning the authority of both the gospels and the epistles. (note he uses the word "evangelists" for the gospels.)


-excerpted from [i]The Doctrine of Justification by Faith[/i] by John Owen

2. Socinus objects, in particular, against this doctrine of justification by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, and of his satisfaction, that there is nothing said of it in the Evangelists, nor in the report of the sermons of Christ unto the people, nor yet in those of his private discourses with his disciples; and he urges it vehemently and at large against the whole of the expiation of sin by his death, De Servator., par. iv., cap. 9. And as it is easy “malis inventis pejora addere,” this notion of his is not only made use of and pressed at large by one among ourselves, but improved also by a dangerous comparison between the writings of the evangelists and the other writings of the New Testament. For to enforce this argument, that the histories of the gospel, wherein the sermons of Christ are recorded, do make no mention of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ (as in his judgment they do not), nor of his satisfaction, or merit, or expiation of sin, or of redemption by his death (as they do not in the judgment of Socinus), it is added by him, that for his part he is apt to admire our Saviour’s sermons, who was the author of our religion, before the writings of the apostles, though inspired men. Whereunto many dangerous insinuations and reflections on the writings of St Paul, contrary to the faith and sense of the church in all ages, are subjoined. See pp. 240, 241.

But this boldness is not only unwarrantable, but to be abhorred. What place of Scripture, what ecclesiastical tradition, what single precedent of any one sober Christian writer, what theological reason, will countenance a man in making the comparison mentioned, and so determining thereon? Such juvenile boldness, such want of a due apprehension and understanding of the nature of divine inspiration, with the order and design of the writings of the New Testament, which are the springs of this precipitate censure, ought to be reflected on. At present, to remove this pretence out of our way, it may be observed, —

(1.) That what the Lord Christ taught his disciples, in his personal ministry on the earth, was suited unto that economy of the church which was antecedent unto his death and resurrection. Nothing did he withhold from them that was needful to their faith, obedience, and consolation in that state. Many things he instructed them in out of the Scripture, many new revelations 59
he made unto them, 59and many times did he occasionally instruct and rectify their judgments; howbeit he made no clear,
distinct revelation of those sacred mysteries unto them which are peculiar unto the faith of the New Testament, nor were to be distinctly apprehended before his death and resurrection.

(2.) What the Lord Christ revealed afterward by his Spirit unto the apostles, was no less immediately from himself than was the truth which he spoke unto them with his own mouth in the days of his flesh. An apprehension to the contrary is destructive of Christian religion. The epistles of the apostles are no less Christ’s sermons than that which he delivered on the mount. Wherefore —

(3.) Neither in the things themselves, nor in the way of their delivery or revelation, is there any advantage of the one sort of writings above the other. The things written in the epistles proceed from the same wisdom, the same grace, the same love, with the things which he spoke with his own mouth in the days of his flesh, and are of the same divine veracity, authority, and efficacy. The revelation which he made by his Spirit is no less divine and immediate from himself, than what he spoke unto his disciples on the earth. To distinguish between these things, on any of these accounts, is intolerable folly.

(4.) The writings of the evangelists do not contain the whole of all the instructions which the Lord Christ gave unto his disciples personally on the earth. For he was seen of them after his resurrection forty days, and spoke with them of “the things pertaining to the kingdom of God,” Acts i. 3; and yet nothing hereof is recorded in their writings, but only some few occasional speeches. Nor had he given before unto them a clear and distinct understanding of those things which were delivered concerning his death and resurrection in the Old Testament; as is plainly declared, Luke xxiv. 25–27. For it was not necessary for them, in that state wherein they were. Wherefore, —

(5.) As to the extent of divine revelations objectively, those which he granted, by his Spirit, unto his apostles after his ascension, were beyond those which he personally taught them, so far as they are recorded in the writings of the evangelists. For he told them plainly, not long before his death, that he had many things to say unto them which “then they could not bear,” John xvi. 12. And for the knowledge of those things, he refers them to the coming of the Spirit to make revelation of them from himself, in the next words, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall 60
glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it 60unto you,” verses 13, 14. And on this account he had told them
before, that it was expedient for them that he should go away, that the Holy Spirit might come unto them, whom he would send from the Father, verse 7. Hereunto he referred the full and clear manifestation of the mysteries of the gospel. So false, as well as dangerous and scandalous, are those insinuations of Socinus and his followers.

(6.) The writings of the evangelists are full unto their proper ends and purposes. These were, to record the genealogy, conception, birth, acts, miracles, and teachings of our Saviour, so far as to evince him to be the true, only-promised Messiah. So he testifies who wrote the last of them: “Many other signs truly did Jesus, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,” John xx. 30, 31. Unto this end every thing is recorded by them that is needful unto the ingenerating and establishing of faith. Upon this confirmation, all things declared in the Old Testament concerning him — all that was taught in types and sacrifices — became the object of faith, in that sense wherein they were interpreted in the accomplishment; and that in them this doctrine was before revealed, shall be proved afterward. It is, therefore, no wonder if some things, and those of the highest importance, should be declared more fully in other writings of the New Testament than they are in those of the evangelists.

(7.) The pretence itself is wholly false; for there are as many pregnant testimonies given unto this truth in one alone of the evangelists as in any other book of the New Testament, — namely, in the book of John. I shall refer to some of them, which will be pleaded in their proper place, chap. i. 12, 17; iii. 14–18, 36; v. 24.


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Ron Halverson

 2008/1/17 20:43Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
The epistles of the apostles are no less Christ’s sermons than that which he delivered on the mount.



Well said. An excellent article.


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Mike Compton

 2008/1/17 21:06Profile
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 Re:

Also Forrest,


"And yes, I am asking EVERYONE to look and see if Paul can be supported, point by point, solely through the 11 Apostles, because only they are not suspect."


Why do you say this?


The Lord Jesus said,



[b][color=660033]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [i]some[/i] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [i]some[/i] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [i]them[/i] from city to city: [/color][/b]

- Matthew chapter 23 verse 34(KJV)


[i]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes...[/i]



and also He said


[b][color=660033]Therefore every scribe [i]which is[/i] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [i]that is[/i] a householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [i]things[/i] new and old. [/color][/b]


- Matthew chapter 13 verse 52(KJV)



I think both Paul and Luke qualify, bringing forth things both new and old.


Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/17 21:15Profile
UniqueWebRev
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 Re: Who anointed Paul???

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:
Also Forrest,


"And yes, I am asking EVERYONE to look and see if Paul can be supported, point by point, solely through the 11 Apostles, because only they are not suspect."


Why do you say this?


The Lord Jesus said,



[b][color=660033]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [i]some[/i] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [i]some[/i] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [i]them[/i] from city to city: [/color][/b]

- Matthew chapter 23 verse 34(KJV)


[i]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes...[/i]



and also He said


[b][color=660033]Therefore every scribe [i]which is[/i] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [i]that is[/i] a householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [i]things[/i] new and old. [/color][/b]


- Matthew chapter 13 verse 52(KJV)



I think both Paul and Luke qualify, bringing forth things both new and old.


Chris



Chris,

Paul and Luke may qualify as scribes and prophets, for or against Jesus.

The 11 Apostles are the only ones we know of that were taught by Jesus, and breathed on by Jesus after His resurrection, and if other scribes or prophets don't match what they said, they are false scribes and false prophets.

And Jesus warned about those, as well, if you recall.

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/17 21:27Profile





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