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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 ....

Dorcas,

Let her do her own speaking and defending, this was not done in a corner. Besides, your intrusion and overloading of the forum lately is becoming something of a nuisance. Please, slow down and back off.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/20 21:16Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re: Who Anointed Paul???

I just found this reading, I think it fits here. Although this is just a small part of what today's 'ministers' would possibly write to Paul.

[u][b]WHAT IF PAUL WERE ALIVE TODAY?[/b][/u]

Dear Mr. Paul:

I have your application for missionary appointment before me, and will be as frank as possible concerning your qualifications as a foreign missionary. We have to be very careful in choosing our missionaries, and our Missions Board has reviewed your case thoroughly. We have decided that it would be unwise to send you to the foreign field for the following reasons:

1.

It has come to our attention that you are doing secular work on the side. We do not feel that making tents and a full time ministry go together very well. It seems that you do not have enough experience in trusting the Lord for your income. You should make up your mind whether you want to preach or continue your profession.

2.

Your previous actions have been very rash and unseemly for a minister. We learned that in a public meeting you opposed Dr. Simon Peter, an esteemed minister with an excellent reputation. We also hear that you argued so violently with some of our ministers that a special council meeting had to be called at Jerusalem to prevent a serious split in the churches. We frown on such radicalism. For your own good, I am enclosing a copy of Daius' Carnegus book on "How to Win Jews and Influence Greeks."

3.

We understand that you do not agree with all the points in our constitution and by-laws, and do not even believe in all our doctrines. In checking back, we discovered your Christian education consisted of a three-year course in Arabia . We find that the Arabian school has not been approved by our accreditation board and we hear that there are some strange unknown doctrines being taught in that school. We also hear a rumor that you are a snake handler. Such a reputation could only hurt the true cause of Christ and the Church. We don't have all the details on that episode at Melita, but we understand you claim immunity to harm from snakebites through a promise of Christ. It has come to the attention also that you preach much about "the Power of God" and the "gifts of the Spirit." Also that you speak in tongues a great deal. Surely you realize that such as this only drives off the better class of people, and attracts only the riff-raff.

4.

We see here that you have a jail record in several places. If this is true, it puts you in a bad light, for our denomination has always stood for a high standard of holiness, and I fear it would damage our reputation to have someone representing us that had served time in jails and prisons. Frankly, Mr. Paul, we seriously doubt you could have been innocent and the judge wrong in so many cases. It just doesn't look right.

5.

It seems that you are a troublemaker Mr. Paul. Several businessmen of Ephesus have written us that you were the cause of severe loss of business to them and even stirred mob violence. You must learn to cultivate the friendship and influence of men such as these. We also have some details of a lurid "over the wall in a basket" episode at Damascus, plus a stoning at Lystra, and several other violent actions taken against your ministry. Haven't you ever suspected that conciliatory behavior and gentler words might gain you more friends? We have never condoned such sensationalism in the ministry. This is just not the type of ministers that we send out. We have learned through channels that following some trouble with a preacher on the island of Cyprus; you had to change your name. This does not seem to us to be conduct becoming to the ministry.

6.

You admitted in your application that in the past you neglected such needy fields as Bithynia, just because "the Spirit didn't lead that way," and that you undertook a hazardous journey on the strength of a dream you had at Troas . Mr. Paul, surely you don't expect us to go along with such flimsy and fantastic excuses for your seemingly purposeless wanderings. Many times you did not stay long enough, in our opinion, to get a church established. You left your converts many times without even a pastor to guide them, and without setting the church in order in some good fundamental denomination. We hear also from Troas that you preach too long, one sermon lasting almost twenty-four hours, even to the extent that a young man fell asleep and was seriously injured. We understand that you claim to have restored his life and raised him from the dead by falling on him and embracing him. What nonsense! If the man was injured, you should have called in a competent physician.

7.

We understand from your own home church that you could not get along with your fellow ministers, that John Mark, a commendable young man and nephew of one of our leading ministers, had to leave your party in the middle of a journey, and that you had a violent quarrel with gentle, good natured Barnabas. Now these men are well thought of in Jerusalem and we wonder why you are always having trouble with your fellow workers? We have notarized affidavits from three fine brethren, Diotrephes, Demas, and Alexander, to the effect that it is impossible for them to cooperate with either you or your program. From what we hear, you seem to have a self-exalted spirit, boasting about your revelations and that God has chosen you to reveal some "new Mystery." Can't you realize that any new truth that is to be revealed would come through Headquarters to the recognized, more mature brethren, and that after it had been checked by our Procedure and Doctrine Committee that we would establish it? As you see, Mr. Paul, we feel definitely after close scrutiny of your case, that you are undoubtedly the most unqualified applicant we have ever seen, and my advice for you is to find a church where you can Work in harmony, and use your past education as perhaps a Sunday School teacher. I hope I have prevented you from making a terrible mistake in your life.

Head Minister
First Christian Church

 2008/1/21 6:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Mike B said: Don't make light of this.

I'm not!
**********************************************
Now Mike, I have searched thru this whole thread looking for Forrest's questions that she was having trouble with and all I could find were questions on Paul's credibility NOT scriptures that she had trouble with.

However I did find one verse that seems to have everyone in a tizzy.
Quote:
But if Paul lied about anything, then is his message suspect...or is Paul merely a man, being honest about how he works? And since he admits he lies, it is a problem.

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (ROM 3:7)



I just had a flashed thought, could this "lie" that Paul was speaking of, could it be better translated, "Foolishness"? (as in, the foolishness of preaching) I am just throwing it out there, it's not set in stone with me.

Now lets put it in context:

Quote:
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)Romans 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?[b]Romans 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?[/b]Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I have no knowledge as to what VERSE 7 is saying.

 2008/1/21 12:50









 Re:

I'd like to request that if anyone here, such as RobertW or anyone - has any knowledge of the HRM - that they would post to this.

An appeal.
Thank you!

 2008/1/21 12:55









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
I'd like to request that if anyone here, such as RobertW or anyone - has any knowledge of the HRM - that they would post to this.

An appeal.
Thank you!

I have no idea what HRM [**Edit, wrote HRV!**] stands for! However, it is obvious that we need to read the whole passage and interpret this verse in context. It [i]can't[/i] mean that Paul was a liar, because what liar would actually call [i]himself[/i] one ?!!! He has to mean that others are [i]calling[/i] him a liar because of his teaching, and he uses "my lie" in quotes, because actually it isn''t a lie at all.

Nelson's KJV commentary says this, from verse 5 (my emphasis, note especially the one in italics):

[color=CC0000]5–6. A third objection is now theoretically advanced. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? This is a clever but illogical argument. It is twisting Scripture to make what is inherently evil appear to be ultimately good. Paul anticipates someone saying, “If my unfaithfulness causes God’s faithfulness to be more apparent, is not my sin by contrast enhancing the world’s concept of the absolute holiness and faithfulness of God?” And a second question is: Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? Would it not be unjust of God to punish me for contributing to a more pristine picture of His true character?
[b][u]The expression I speak as a man should not be understood as an absence of divine inspiration in recording these questions, but rather that Paul is using the form of human reasoning to express this inspired truth about God[/u][/b]. Since God’s justice is not something that may be called into question, Paul indicates that only foolish human reasoning would attempt to do so.
The answer to these questions is an emphatic God forbid. The consequence of this line of reasoning would be to deny God the divine right to judge any man. If God cannot judge men, then who can?
7. For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie; … why yet am I also judged as a sinner? Paul had been slandered by the Jews for teaching salvation by grace apart from works. Therefore he uses that situation to theorize a final argument from the Jews. [b][u]If the doctrine of salvation which Paul preaches is a lie, and the truth is seen in contrast to Paul’s teaching, then why is Paul also judged as a sinner? [/u][/b]Should not he be considered a saint if his alleged false doctrine more clearly indicated what was true? Paul has turned the tables on the Jews by using their own logic and putting them in an untenable situation. They could not admit that Paul’s teachings were true. But if they claimed them to be false, by their own logic, they would have to say that divine good arose out of Paul’s doctrine.
8. We be slanderously reported. [b][i][u]It was the Jewish argument that Paul was teaching the lie, Let us do evil, that good may come.[/u][/i][/b] For those who regarded the practice of religion as merely a matter of keeping the law, Paul’s emphasis on justification by faith indeed seemed to make the law and its keeping superfluous.
But justification by faith never meant believers could blatantly disregard the precepts of the law. If they did, it is theirs whose damnation is just. Damnation, or better condemnation, is executed on all those who, in light of their unfaithfulness, turn God’s faithfulness into lasciviousness and license...[/color]

Some of the commentator's explanation is a bit difficult to follow, but the core meaning is clear. Paul is not admitting he is a liar, because he isn't one! He's simply pointing out the logical conclusion if he [i]had[/i] been lying, as his enemies accused him of.


Blessings


Jeannette

 2008/1/21 16:29









 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:
I have searched thru this whole thread looking for Forrest's questions that she was having trouble with and all I could find were questions on Paul's credibility NOT scriptures that she had trouble with.

I'm glad you were able to search the thread. I basically gave up on page 10 because of not being able to stomach it any more.


...Forrest, some of us have asked you to specify scripture, so that there can be a proper discussion, but apart from Romans 3:7, which has an easy explanation if it's read in context, you don't seem to have posted any.

So I eventually, and sadly, have had to come to the same conclusion as others, that you don't actually [i]want[/i] answers or a discussion, but have another motive for your questions.

Maybe some over-reacted and jumped on you for merely suggesting that Paul could be wrong; (or maybe they knew something that I didn't :-( )

But that doesn't alter the facts and is no excuse for what you are doing.

It was my initial impression that you were only asking about Paul's instructions re local church order and the like, or other possibly temporary rulings that may or may not apply today.

But it seems that instead you are seeking to undermine Scripture and cast doubt on all that he wrote.

I'm in no way a "worshipper" of Paul, but that can [b]not[/b] be allowed!


...We need to separate the [i]merely human[/i] from the human when inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul himself was [i]very[/i] careful to distinguish between the two. Most of the time) he wrote by the Spirit, and knew it, (as we too can know if we are open-hearted to what God is saying to us). But on occasion he was expressing his opinion because the Lord hadn't given him any specific instructions.

As in 1Cor 7, concerning marriage (My emphasis):

[color=990000]6 But [b]I speak this by permission[/b], and not of commandment.

10 ¶ And unto the married [b]I command, [u]yet not I, but the Lord[/u][/b], Let not the wife depart from her husband:

12 But to the rest [b]speak I, not the Lord[/b]...[/color]

Paul was an "ordinary" man, yes, with human failings. We see evidence of some of those failings in Acts, such as a hasty temper, for example when he called the High Priest a "whitewashed wall" (though he did apologise for that slip!) But when he wrote the epistles he was inspired by God, as were the other writers of the Bible, who were also ordinary men.

Paul's doctrine, and the Spirit in which he wrote that doctrine, in no way conflicts with the teaching and Spirit in which others in the Bible wrote - and [i]none of them[/i] conflict with what Jesus said!

Maybe some [i]interpretations[/i] of Paul's doctrine aren't as inspired as Paul was when he wrote, but that is another matter.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/1/21 17:22
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:Who Annointed Paul???

Dear Jeannette,

I am not in the least saying that the works of Paul are not inspired...I believe that they are. I merely do not believe the Bible to be perfectly inerrent, and Paul, for all his brilliance, is not Jesus, our Lord.

I became very aggravated in the last week or so when I saw repeatedly a use of Paul's works and guidance to the Gentile Church as being some how seperate from, but equal, or even superior to the ministry of Jesus, and I am merely trying to document all my thoughts about this matter properly before attempting to answer anyone further.

No one wanted to hear what I was saying, nor even what I was getting at, and for that I blame myself, for allowing myself to be pushed farther and faster by everyone's ire at me daring to question Paul, or the Bible as being inerrent.

I am also a bit weary of being charged, tried, condemned, and hung in effigy as each person reads from post to post, and I cannot keep up with you all. I have answered posts as calmly and politely as I could under the circumstances, but I really never expected this reaction to what was an academically posed set of questions. I actually had the hope of scholarly answers, but I see now that I was mistaken to expect such a thing.

I will finish my thoughts on the matter as quickly as I can, and bring them to SI, but I will not speak again until I am ready, and that may take a few days, or perhaps a week. I will not again act in a rushed manner, publishing questions sent to me without a clear explanation of my thoughts, in an attempt to keep everyone answered, even as I am preparing a considered response.

As to the rest of the brethern and sistern, I appreciate your dislike of the topic, but the topic is none the less valid in my eyes, and is of concern to me for not only my spiritual well being, but for yours as well.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2008/1/22 3:59Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Jesus Christ anointed Paul

Quote:
I am also a bit weary of being charged, tried, condemned, and hung in effigy as each person reads from post to post, and I cannot keep up with you all. I have answered posts as calmly and politely as I could under the circumstances, but I really never expected this reaction to what was an academically posed set of questions. I actually had the hope of scholarly answers, but I see now that I was mistaken to expect such a thing.



Be sure of this, it is not [i]you[/i] that is being tried here but your question\reasonings. If you cannot well recognize the duplicity of predetermined dismissal in your '[i]academically posed set of questions[/i]' you most certainly will not find answers, how can you when the framework is such that you have no expectations of receiving any?

If you are couching the same devious minded reasonings that you say were put to you as "questions" though they also are straw men, as likewise "scholarly", there is no other response than [i]rubbish[/i].

The reason you are receiving no scholarly answers may well be that you are not in the midst of 'scholars of theology' but Brethren of the Spirit, the one and same Spirit of truth, that same Spirit that demands integrity and honesty not slashing and thrashing through the scriptures to support some fallacious reasoning from his or her fallen mind.

You have shown nothing but defiance to the questions posed to you throughout, the very starting points of authenticity and believability, foundational aspects. You would again overlook and posit as a first insinuation that Paul is already under suspicion and to your mind as actual and factual. That is what you have set out as a presupposition, read your own words!

What you fail to take note of is just where this all leads to. Who's next up on the chopping block, John? Perhaps [i]he[/i] was deceived also, what with his esoteric meanderings of a "Revelation of Jesus Christ"... ?

Your reasonings are in a liberal and rebellious stance against revealed truth and you would tear the seamless cloth that it is by trying to put the apostles and disciples at odds one to another. It is diabolical and if you think there is to be no outrage at it makes your deception only more pronounced.

Quote:
As to the rest of the brethern and sistern, I appreciate your dislike of the topic, but the topic is none the less valid in my eyes, and is of concern to me for not only my spiritual well being, but for yours as well.



Don't fool yourself, "our" spiritual well being is not what is at stake here but yours and that is why, precisely why this has even been allowed to continue. Step out of your paradigm and look at this from the concern side that those who love your soul are looking at it from, I [i]beg[/i] you. This is a snare of the adversary to detach you from historical orthodoxy and I mean in the very essence of it, the spiritual authenticity.

Forrest, if anything, step away from this for a season. Go back and read Christian history, read the Puritans, not because it is my "cup of tea" or anyone else's for that matterm, but just to see if not perhaps these things have taken you unaware.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/22 10:05Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37637
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
I became very aggravated in the last week or so when I saw repeatedly a use of Paul's works and guidance to the Gentile Church as being some how seperate from, but equal, or even superior to the ministry of Jesus, and I am merely trying to document all my thoughts about this matter properly before attempting to answer anyone further.


Forrest,

Reasoning like this is not really a place on sermonindex for it. I encourage you to privately search out these matters, sermonindex discussions are for christians who believe in the whole inspiration of the bible and are desiring to edify each other in their walk with God.

I am not impressed with alot of the bantering, rash answers, name calling and bickering in this thread. Those who have pariticipated in these things should be ashamed, for this site is being read by over 5000 people a day from over [b]80 different countries[/b]. I would ask forum members to seriously consider the impact they are having on the "testimony of our Lord Jesus christ"

"What about the Lord's Testimony"
-Denny Kenaton

This thread is being [b]locked[/b].


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2008/1/22 10:11Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Quote:
Mike said:Don't fool yourself, "our" spiritual well being is not what is at stake here but yours and that is why, precisely why this has even been allowed to continue. Step out of your paradigm and look at this from the concern side that those who love your soul are looking at it from, I beg you. This is a snare of the adversary to detach you from historical orthodoxy and I mean in the very essence of it, the spiritual authenticity.



I agree with our moderators... and these scriptures that back up the assesment of this whole thread:Titus 3:10 - 11 (NASB) 10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

2 Corinthians 11:3 (NASB) 3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Proverbs 30:5 - 6 (NKJV) 5 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. 6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

James 3:17 (NKJV) 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/1/22 10:55Profile





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