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Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario



I have engaged with you in the past on the thread regarding women usurping authority, keeping silent,etc. I discerned in your writings something that made my spirit uneasy.

I have just read this thread from beginning to end so I am not going off half-cocked as it were. This thread and the previous thread I mentioned tell me exactly what is going on for you right now.

A little back story from me, around four years ago I was dating a divorced woman. I was a nominal Christian at best (unconverted to be honest). Everytime I opened the bible I would open to "A man that marries a divorced woman commits adultery". I did not like that scripture, it was not what I wanted to hear. I sought out other scriptures hoping for an exception. There was not one. Not satisfied with this, I started consulting man and not God. Still nothing. Then I went to my next door neighbour who was I woman I believed to be a Christian and posed my problem to her. She dug around her house for a small book that dealt with the exact question I was asking. And the book told me what I wanted to hear, I can't remember what it was called or even what it said for that matter. But it was enough.

I married the divorced woman in February 2004 and she left me in February 2007. At first I was praying to be reconciled to her, because I believed that was the right thing to do. It wasn't until I attended a mennonite church and told the pastor of my situation and asked if I should continue praying for reconciliation. He looked at me without batting an eye and said "No, that relationship is sinful being that it is adultery." The words penetrated my heart like a knife, the scripture came flooding back to my mind and I knew he was right.

This is what I belive about your situation. You despise what Paul wrote about woman in his epistles. Just as I hated Jesus's words about marrying a divorced woman.

If you will be honest with yourself, you will know what I am saying is true. You love the idea of being a Reverend, it is even included in your username. I pray you will be wiser than I was. I persisted in my folly and self delusion. You are not a reverend or a pastor even if you have a paper that man gave you stating otherwise.

Submit to the word and unto the Lord. Our flesh would glory in throwing about 3/4's of the bible in the trash can and maybe just keep the stuff about prosperity and heaven and God's love. But as you know it does not work like that. Every word of it is meant to be there.

I know what you are going through, but please receive correction while it is still called Today.


Murray Beninger

 2008/1/20 2:07Profile


I haven't read the entire thread, I read bits and pieces of it. I was commenting on the title, not so much what Webrev was actually getting at. But if Forrest is doubting the words of Paul as being inspired from God, I question her faith.

If she believes in the Rapture lets say, how can you believe it if the teaching is coming from someone who is not anointed of God? The list is long on this. I mean, Paul covered the whole council of Christ in doctrine. If you speak of anything that remotely touches Christian doctrine your believing Paul's writings. So to say that Paul is not anointed makes you look foolish.

 2008/1/20 11:56

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Strong words ~ Strong caution

Words ...


Many others come to mind, rebellion ... But I do want to strike at the roots here. Leaving off with mixed feeling last night, compassion came into play yet the defiance at hand, are we speaking of one or the other? That is, one who is caught unaware or wide awake?


1. Literally, a catching or ensnaring. Hence, the misleading of a person; the leading of another person to believe what is false, or not to believe what is true, and thus to ensnare him; fraud; fallacy; cheat; any declaration, artifice or practice, which misleads another, or causes him to believe what is false.

My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. Job 27.

2. Stratagem; artifice; device intended to mislead.

They imagine deceits all the day long. Psa 38.

3. In scripture, that which is obtained by guile, fraud or oppression.

Their houses are full of deceit. Jer 5. Zeph. I.

4. In law, any trick, device, craft, collusion, shift, covin, or underhand practice, used to defraud another.

There is an undermining that needs to be addressed here in the fullest measure. The little patience being shown towards the frame work that all of this is couched in is right and true. This forum has, at it's core an earnestness that it is fueled by though that may not always be in evidence given any particular set of circumstances.

What is in evidence here, throughout this posting will serve as a warning and a caution to the unsuspecting and the gullible alike. Don't take the thought too much to heart, we all have been or currently are being swayed by the wisdom of this world, the fleshly states of our minds and the craftiness of the devil. To say this much often lends towards flights of fancy and painting a demon under every tree. Even our penchant to future cast 'prophetically' and derive too much 'news' out of the news and make sport of it through scripture is endemic of the same underpinnings ... [i]swayed[/i].

Perhaps that is the better word, it is a devious word in conjunction with the inherent subtlety's that can permeate the thoughts unaware.

2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Do allow the fuller context as it applies to restoration, but my intention is to hone in on our ignorance and 'bewitching';

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

This, I am afraid is what is highly probable by intaking this cyanide into the system as it is here. Note the similarities to the disgruntled atheist who jumps through the scriptures attempting to find "[i]Aha[/i]!" moments of contradiction and then presents them as stand alone case studies. Note the similarities to those statements used of the devil himself to supplant scripture against the Lord of the scriptures. Being this is an age of the other side of the coin, surely there are the agnostic or atheist that may well be seeking truth wholeheartedly.

So how to ascribe intention here? It is it's own evidence. There is a craftiness to place an intention against a question and call them equal. A statement disguised in this cloak is prearranged intentional or not only to draw in and be drawn off. It is presented as an inquiry but has a presupposition and that is why it is often termed a 'straw man', something set up and then dared to be knocked back down again.

And so some of us have set about to do just this. Expose it for what it is inherently at it's foundational level and tear down the structure before the building is erected.

There is something very diabolical to suggest, at it's onset that something needs to be proved by way of extraction, in this case Paul without his own defense. If the same logic was applied to Jesus, putting him in doubt as a preposition, what have we? We have exactly that which was mentioned earlier here, and that is planting seeds of doubt into the minds of the unsuspecting. Precisely the attempt curiously forwarded by the devil to the Lord. It is an antidote that [i]suggests[/i], another very key word here, that the preposition is first true and therefore must be proven wrong somewhere later on down the line, after the supposed question has been answered. It's a trick however it is motivated.

So we have an equivalent in suggesting that Paul is isolated by not being one of the 'breathed on" ones and curiously convoluted further by making a mistake in simultaneously calling all of them 'just men' at one point and later on making a distinction, that the 'breathed upon' are perfected and their words hold true while the others are faulty. Yet Paul rebukes Peter well after the fact, of course the logic being that this is of no recourse since Paul is under suspicion to begin with and his own words are not qualifiable.

Interesting how tangled this all can become by not cutting the tree down at its roots. You can find yourself in almost a dilemma trying to sort it out, it has a mechanism that springs like a trap, but I will state that this is a trap pre-baited and set by the framework and construct it is presented in. Again, note the similarities to the bait\trap used of the adversary in tempting the Lord.

Chucking the brains at the expense of believing only as you are admonished. Another ad hominen presupposition. You are lazy, unstudied, you accept just what you are told without question. It is a preemptive strike meant to disparage and often put one on the defensive. Again it is laced with a vindictive, an assumption and attempts to skirt or throw one offside to accept a presupposition on it's own merits.

These are the starting points that we have to guard against in conversing with those for whatever the reasonings are set about to do. Well before being sucked down into a didactic mental chess match. [i]Why[/i] do you ask? Is the question that ought to be first-most in our minds. Is it to forward an agenda, a construct or an honest inquiry set about to an end of earnest understanding?

If we truly stop to think about it we believe some rather fantastical things by a matter of faith and as it is written. Let me hover on that a moment. [i]It is written[/i]. All of a sudden we are face with a dilemma of logic and faith, we are at the point of [i]believability[/i]. If we do not have good reason to believe [i]it is written[/i] then perhaps the supposition is true after all, we have chucked our fleshly brains in the garbage can and have been led astray to esoteric, abstract myths and fables, we believe because we want them to be ... believable.

But that is not why the majority of us are here, digging down further and further, ever on and on to greater and profoundly deeper understandings, finding the more we do in fact know internally, intuitively if I may, the more we are in awe and wonder at what lies still ahead and that which is far past our understanding. Even for some us, so far, that we now understand incredibly the truth of;

[i]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out![/i] Rom 11:33

And go figure, it would be Paul to put it to us in this fashion. I am about to be highly redundant as you might have suspected. We believe ultimately by [i]authenticity[/i] and the only safe guard we have, the only provability is whether or not there is something tangible to place our trust, our minds, our hearts and souls into. And that leaves us with the only elements that are quantifiable towards a believability that is authentic and true ...

Character, integrity, honesty. What makes Jesus Christ believable is His entirety. All of what He said, all of what He did, all that has been captured into written verse ([i]It is written[/i]. I still, to this very hour marvel at how the same Man who is both the epitome of compassion can level a Pharisee, a hypocrite, look straight through a praying man under a tree, answer the profoundest question ever uttered; "[i]What is truth?[/i]" without a stitch of malice, a hint of pride or any other thing that would be forwarded to any other of us created beings. [i]Blameless. Spotless.[/i]

I could wax on eloquently for endless pages just to think on these matters. There was a time when I used to entertain the thought of how impossible it is that any imagination ever created could have come up with such a Man. I believe I have posited in the past that we could take the greatest minds that ever lived, all that are presently with an intake of oxygen, put them all in a think tank and you could never have created such a mythical person. It (he rather) would be tainted and biased one way or the other, he would be flawed, suspect or wrong merits associated other than sheer honesty and integrity. Can you see where I am going with all this? Certainly in His day and in ours alike the attempts to punch holes in Him go ever on and on, but I dare the earnest inquirer to touch his character and integrity, it is here that all is spelled out before us. This where the Dominic Crossans of the world, the liberal theolog's and the spurious re-writers of history, the Davinci Code and all the new age re-crafting is fully up against it, against an immovable attribute, not one, but many.

This matter is of the utmost importance! What makes a man credible? What makes the now maligned and suspected Paul honorable, believable, [i]authentic[/i]? It is these very same foundational qualities.

I was almost in a great hurry to stress this and feared I might even forget, but may I put something to all of us just here? There is a vast difference in us and the Lord. He is without reproach and we are ... full of it! Do take that as both Freudian and derogatory. We are dirt bags (Check Genesis for confirmation), confused, contradictory, prone to failure even at this stage of being yet on our way with the unbelievable invasion of our own being with the Holy Spirit, the [i]One and the same[/i] Spirit! Mind that!

But towards our character and integrity, our own believability. Our words indict us far too often, we fail to live up to our expressions though we often mean well. But what makes us worthy of a hearing in the first place? Our bible knowledge or the often opposite, simplistic, child-like faith, some combination of both? Or is there something more profoundly telling of us, some element that cut's through despite ourselves? Am not about to get needle in the hay stack deep into what we are able to accomplish without the Holy Spirit or if we can indeed do any such thing [i]apart[/i] from the Lord. (John 15:5). But may I forward something that came into my thoughts late last night?

Our very failures, when they are frankly admitted, our earnest humility in admission, our sincere repentance, these are perhaps even more attributable to our authenticity than our good deeds and our right understanding. Our Holiness that we are ever supposed to be after, that incredibly maligned word, to even utter it conjuring up the attached legalisms and abstract sophistry, "piety" that is more defined as [i]pie-in the sky[/i] frankly ... It is heart honesty that will spell us, there is our integrity, character and believability, there authenticity does its own work and its own speaking. And the scriptures themselves hide nothing from us of this as we well know. Noah and Moses, yes Saul turned Paul, Peter and on and on. Warts, bruises, bumps and all.

With all my heart believe that if even some of the recent high profile failings of ministers and preachers out in he greater regions of this crass Christendom would truly accept, admit and then do the very thing necessary, step down [i]permanently[/i] and, alas that grand phrase uttered by our own Philologos comes to mind ...

[i]When their repentance becomes as notorious as their sin[/i]

If we had [i]that[/i], my God what might the difference be? What I was indeed musing on was the paradox of how this kind of earnest [i]proves[i/] out character and integrity, it may be shame and reproach at the beginning but coming clean draws it is own merits and if anyone this earnest of heart and soul draws me like a magnet and because I am so well versed in it by experience. Then the heart in earnestness goes out to them. Then we are partakers in their sorrows and encouragers unto restoration. Now we have a true, quantifiable forgiveness. Now we have an authenticity that cannot be shredded. Character spells nobility and honor, integrity and authenticity.

And ultimately, believability.

This is the testing of all things that we have to do with. This is the Berean nobility. This is the ground of which we stand upon to thwart spurious logic and diabolical efforts at undermining. This is what makes Paul the Apostle an apostle and untouchable in his authenticity and likewise the 11 and does not set them at odds one against the other. This is the essence and purity of what we believe. Don't you believe any other thing, don't you dare. Don't be deceived.

Mike Balog

 2008/1/20 12:52Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


I cant think of the man that was martyred for printing bibles. Was it Tyndale?
Anyway I think the book of Hebrews alone would be worth martyrdom......and we are not sure of the author.

Are the unsure books in danger too?


 2008/1/20 14:44Profile


Ok we've loaded the guns and shot everyone down. Now it's time to get to the root of this thread. It's time for Forrest to bring forth her grievances with Paul. What are the scriptures that your having trouble with? Lets have them on display here so we can examine them. We are not getting anywhere, we are just going back and forth in our zeal.

Webrev, please lay out the verses of Paul's writings that you have trouble with, lets examine them in the light of the Old Testament and the gospels. If you like, you can display them one at a time and then we can all comment on them and see what we come up with.


 2008/1/20 14:46


David, it was John Wycliffe.

Your right about Hebrews. Great point.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit.....absolutely!

And not being a woman's liber or anything, I've read many articles that a woman, Priscilla, may have written Hebrews. This is not coming from women either, but men, and not men who are promoting women as pastors.

Others have been mentioned.

The Book of Jude, now that's a great book, not written by an Apostle...calls himself a servent of Jesus Christ and brother of James. I don't recall Jude being an Apostle, but definitely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Who wrote Job???? Great book, and James also attests to Job.

One does not have to decimate Paul or his epistles simply because they believe him to be a woman hater. PAul loved women and respected women.

Jesus loved/loves women.

My Goodness Deborah was a Judge in Israel, before Kings were established....and married too!

But we have to remember it is God who calls and approves. We don't call ourselves into ministry, and not before God has approved one as being good stewards of the mysteries of God, UPHOLDING all the word of truth.

Paul laid the foundation of Church order, and Jesus placed gifts in each church for His Body, the Body of Christ to grow and mature.

The Gifts are given to ALL, men and women, but Paul clearly established the administration of the Church and Church order was given to men.

Love in Christ

 2008/1/20 15:43


Nice Post Katy, well done! ;-)

 2008/1/20 17:42

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Reading through

Ok we've loaded the guns and shot everyone down. Now it's time to get to the root of this thread. It's time for Forrest to bring forth her grievances with Paul. What are the scriptures that your having trouble with? Lets have them on display here so we can examine them. We are not getting anywhere, we are just going back and forth in our zeal.

Have you read through or tracked along the enirety of the posting? Go back a page and you will find the questions, if you could call them that. Don't make light of this.

Edit; Missed this;

I haven't read the entire thread, I read bits and pieces of it. I was commenting on the title, not so much what Webrev was actually getting at.

If that is still the case, then go back and read through it before making comment brother, this is not a trivial matter at stake here.

Mike Balog

 2008/1/20 18:13Profile

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


If that is still the case, then go back and read through it before making comment brother, this is not a trivial matter at stake here.

Yes, there's nothing trivial about this. People are tempted to come on to this thread without first reading what has already been posted. I guess they're allured by the catchy title. It seems they've already made up their minds as to what needs to be done and how it should be handled. It isn't about "shooting people down" as much as it is guarding against error in a forthright manner. The purpose, from the very inception of this thread, was a calculated effort to cast doubt on scripture by blighting Paul. Her mind was already made up - probably for years now - and she is simply "going public" in the hopes of spreading the poison to gain converts. The long, red diatribe she posted bears witness to the premeditated intent. All her ducks are in a row and she's calling us out to defend the Word of God against a diabolical straw man predicated upon twisted scripture.

We need to thank God for a moderator who recognizes that - and holds nothing back.

Brother Paul

Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/20 18:56Profile

 Re: Who Anointed Paul???

Hello Paul,

I still think these comments are uncalled for, and if you really feel the need to post them publicly, why not direct them to the lady herself, instead of writing as if she's out of virtual earshot? Better stil, make friends with her!

Her mind was already made up - probably for years now - and she is simply "going public" in the hopes of spreading the poison to gain converts.

There may well be an industry out there, solely devoted to manufacting Christian-time-wasting activities, but for those who really believe those arguments absolve them from facing the reality of a Day of Judgment when they die, the scorn you are willing to pour in this thread does not qualify as the entreaty to faith which Forrest may desire, and I certainly do desire for those souls. Not only do these comments do nothing to glorify the Lord, they do nothing to sieze the evangelistic opportunity in which Forrest is engaged.


Lastly, (and again), [u]it is plain[/u] there is spiritual opposition bearing down on Forrest, but I believe your virtual holding her responsible, rather than helping her to [i]stand[/i], is unnecessary, seeing she is not just experiencing this in [i]cyberlife[/i], but in her real 3D life. Please wake up and pull alongside like a fellow-soldier?

 2008/1/20 21:03

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