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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Annie, yes I agree we should not worship the gifts we should worship Jesus.
I dont know of any teaching that espouses worshipping the gifts.
I dont think it is correct to say Jesus had all the gifts.
Jesus was and is the I am.
Jesus didn't use the gifts to resurrect Lazarus or himself.
Jesus said "I am the resurrection"
No man can say this.
The gifts come from God.
They are to man.
Ive never heard the automatic theory that they are just part of Him living His life through us.
Prayer is not automatic or fasting or worship.
There is human initiation involved in these and also in operating in the gifts.


That is why Paul said "but covet earnestly the best gifts."


David

 2008/1/19 0:02Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3305
Texas

 Re:

In verses 4-7 we see that there are differences of gifts, administrations, and operations; and that they are given by God to believers for the benefit of His Body.

In verses 8-11 were see the different gifts which are distributed among believers by the Spirit. It is important to note the key words "to another," which are used to discribe the distribution of the gifts. It says "to another" and not "to all," even in reference to the gift of tongues. Verse 11 informs us that the Spirit distributes these gifts to each person as the Spirit pleases for the benefit of the Body.


1 Corinthians 12:1-31

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (KJV)

In verses 4-7 we see that there are differences of gifts, administrations, and operations; and that they are given by God to believers for the benefit of His Body.

In verses 8-11 were see the different gifts which are distributed among believers by the Spirit. It is important to note the key words "to another," which are used to discribe the distribution of the gifts. It says "to another" and not "to all," even in reference to the gift of tongues. Verse 11 informs us that the Spirit distributes these gifts to each person as the Spirit pleases for the benefit of the Body.


_________________
Bill

 2008/1/19 0:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
Hia Brother - maybe if you take another look.
The first posts were saying that a person can be used in ALL the gifts - if they are where God wants them and the "fruit" is Singular - because that's what Gal 5:22 says.

If you "put on Christ"/"walk in the Spirit", you'll have His love, joy, peace, longsuffering, patience - Etc.
That's why "they" are called 'fruit-singular' - and not "fruits".


LORD Bless.

Hi all

Only just really looked at this thread with a view to commenting, but couldn't resist ;-)

The best illustration I know of the difference between fruit and gifts is a Christmas tree. You can put lots of gifts on a Christmas tree, put them on and take them off as you choose. But if the living tree bears pine cones, then that's the fruit!

Gifts are temporary, they come and go, fruit remains. Gifts (even the best gifts) are superficial,in the sense they can be put on and taken off without making any difference to the tree; [b]fruit is from the very substance of the tree itself, and bears its seed[/b].

Hope that helps?

in Him

Jeannette

 2008/1/19 13:31









 Re:

Thank you LittleGift for that excellent analogy of the "fruit" of The Spirit.

_____________________________________________________________

Hia Brother David. Somehow, (I don't know [i]how[/i] yet), folks have read my first opening post to read that I don't believe in the gifts.

I strongly believe in all of them - but the emphasis is not to be on the "gifts" and though we are told to desire to prophecy --- that has been abused and misunderstood in these days and thought to mainly concern "fore-telling" future events, etc..

Prophecy in the N.T. Church is to just speak directly the "very oracles of GOD" - which come directly from Him - as in, what is the mind of Christ, at that moment - that is From His Word or from His knowledge of needs in the Church or world.
The True "burden of the Lord" from His Word.
Whether that be a word about the need for repentance or where the congregation has gone 'away' from His Word and so forth, from HIS perspective from Heaven.
It is also doctrinal purity - which is the main purpose of "The Spirit of TRUTH".
Doctrinal purity also includes "right living".
This was the case even for the O.T. prophets.
Without doctrinal purity - I doubt the source of "future telling", because that would contradict the purpose and nature of "The Spirit of TRUTH."

Regarding the "gifts" - in the first post I split them into their three categories.

1 Corth 12 are the Manifestational Gifts. These are Not "resident" --- they are "severally as HE wills". They are "at the moment" gifts that GOD Himself manifests [i]through[/i] the Saint. Any Saint can be used in any or all of these within their lifetime, IF HE so chooses to use them and when HE chooses. They are "as needed", from HIS View and not ours. We do not control these gifts - they (if seen properly) - are HIM working through the person, to meet a specific need. We cannnot "work up" these manifestations at will.

Next were the Romans 12 "Motivational Gifts". Now these [i]are[/i] resident. In other words, they are what motivates the person toward their own particular "Burden" and what they seem to focus on most in their lives.

To just give one example - the people with the "gift of mercy", are normally those who come to other's defense, more times than those with the gift of "teaching" does. The teacher will want to immediately correct and straighten out the doctrinal error and the person with the gift of mercy will want to more see the person with the error than the error itself. That being a loose translation of how these gifts "motivate" the life of the person possessing whichever of these seven gifts. But shows how we must see others "leanings" and understand when their motivation is at work and not see it from our own understanding and get annoyed with each other's differences or "giftings". In this case, the one who "teaches" must bear with the one with "mercy" and vice versa - just different "Body parts" doing what they're born to do.

Lastly were the "Ministerial Gifts". We all know enough about "the 5 fold" Ministries. Probably have already heard enough about them to strangle ourselves with them - but none the less - if seen properly - they are for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ and so on.

These also are normally Resident and a calling. But that does not mean that God limits Himself by using a Saint in only one each. A person can be used in all 5. There are no limits with Him - depending on His Wisdom of the person and the circumstances He has chosen in which to place the person. Thinking of some like Paul or some of our present day Missionaries, for instance - and those whom Daniel spoke of (and Amos) -- who will live within the time frame of the Last Days.

Now about the difference between how Jesus walked and how we should walk --- there should be entirely NO difference.

Repeatedly Jesus said that He did "nothing of Himself" and His words were "not His Own".

He "emptied" Himself and allowed Himself to become entirely dependent on The Spirit of God The Father.

He was a living example of HOW we're Supposed to walk this walk - In The Spirit.

Yes, HE was GOD in the flesh, but HE became a man just as us, tempted in all manners such as we - but without sin.

How many times is He placed before us as our example of how to walk? In 100% total dependence on hearing and following The Spirit of God and not our own thoughts and actions ------- just as HE.

The emphasis still should not be "the gifts" and that is exactly why Paul had to write all of that to the Church at Corinth. They were Greeks and were going bonkers over there with these things. One needs to read those multiple chapters addressed to them in context to get the drift of what was going on there and why Paul needed to write concerning their behavior and misunderstandings of the "gifts". (Which still exists - just as back then.)

Looking at the 14th chpt alone, one can see that Paul was stressing "order" in the Church - that didn't exist with them and still plagues the charismatics.

Quote:
psalm1 wrote:Annie, yes I agree we should not worship the gifts we should worship Jesus.
I dont know of any teaching that espouses worshipping the gifts.
I dont think it is correct to say Jesus had all the gifts.
Jesus was and is the I am.
Jesus didn't use the gifts to resurrect Lazarus or himself.
Jesus said "I am the resurrection"
No man can say this.
The gifts come from God.
They are to man.
Ive never heard the automatic theory that they are just part of Him living His life through us.
Prayer is not automatic or fasting or worship.
There is human initiation involved in these and also in operating in the gifts.


That is why Paul said "but covet earnestly the best gifts."


David



Brother - this is where you are misunderstanding. If you just look at the "Working of The Spirit of GOD" as these "gifts" - I can see where you would say that Jesus wasn't used in all "the gifts".

This is the problem in the non-cesstationists minds. It is the "Working of the Spirit of GOD" [i]through[/i] Jesus and with us. Same Spirit - but because we have teeny-weeny brains and limited understanding - GOD broke down these "workings" into individual "gifts and giftings" - so that we can handle being used by HIM in smaller bites. Yes, Jesus was "used in all the so-called gifts" - if we look at the "gifts" and then realize HE "walked in dependence on The Spirit" as we are supposed to and the only reason GOD had to bust them down to "individual actions" of the Holy Spirit (ie "gifts") was because our minds are only human and thence - dull.

In your post above - you are not seeing where the humanity of Christ was for our example and being able to distinquish between the Deity of Christ and His lowering Himself as man to be an example to us of HOW we are "to walk".

As far as "human initiation", as you mentioned above --- that is NOT with the "gifts". "Fasting, worship, and prayer" are not part of the gifts - as you mentioned them above and yes, they are controlled by our wills - but even there we are told to "worship in Spirit and Truth" and "pray in The Spirit".

Jesus depended on The Father to raise Lazarus. He "looked up and prayed to the Father for answer" before God rose Lazarus through Jesus. So YES - if you desire to raise the dead --- as you've expressed --- you will need to have a "word from God" First --- that that 'is' HIS will and then Look Up to Him to do it. YOU cannot raise the dead.

The "human initiation" involved in being used by GOD are mentioned through-out this thread and that is to "Die to Self" and desire to have HIM Increase by us Decreasing as much as humanly possible and to THAT - HE's put no "limits".

As far as your partial quote of the verse above - we covered that together on a previous page.

Paul stressed Love and prophecy as the better, with Love being the Greatest we can aspire to. And Prophecy is the unction of the Spirit of [u]TRUTH[/u].

But first - we must see - as the first post says on page one - that 'The Body with HIM AS HEAD' is the first prerequisite that should be in our minds. And Love. Then yes - the potential is limitless - "as He was in this world - so are we" supposed to be and "the works that I do - you shall do also." But it will be according to His Will and HIS timing and HIS decision of which gifts are needed where, when and through whom. Anything less, such as focusing on "our gift" grieves HIS Spirit.

To focus on the individual gifts and not "being transformed into His very Image" is to worship the gifts and not the Giver and causes us to increase in our own eyes, rather than decrease so that He can Increase, and use us in any way HE would desire, in Any way HE needs - at anytime - for any need - for any person - by whatever gifts - by whomever HE chooses to use.

I hope I've cleared up anything that may have been missing from what was posted in the first post that started this thread.

Thank you David.

LORD Bless.

 2008/1/19 14:48
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Annie,


'...the emphasis is not to be on the "gifts"'


This gives the impression to me that we have two options, emphasis or none at all.



I don't see this to be the case.


Paul wrote that the Corinthians came behind in no gift and that he ws thankfull for it. There is, I think, an emphasis there.


Would you agree?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 15:15Profile









 Re:

Hi Brother Chris, That verse you quote is from Chpt 1 and you can't limit Paul's use of the term "gift" in that book.

You have to understand the whole book and all the problems at Corinth from both books to them and not limit 1 Corth 1:7 to just the gifts.

He 'had' to address the gifts in chpt.s 12-14 because they were misusing and not understanding being used in them.

Both Epistles to the Corinthians need to be viewed as a whole of the condition of that particualar church.

This begins 'just one' of their problems.....

1Co 1:7-12 [u] So that[/u] ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

 2008/1/19 16:41









 Re:

Quote:

suzy wrote:
HE_Reigns - Thank you for the challenging passage from Phillipians and Leonard Ravenhill’s comments. Here is the hymn from which he is quoting. I have not sung it for a very long time. They are words I would not want to sing unless I meant every word.

My goal is God Himself, not joy nor peace;
Nor even blessing, but Himself, my God.
'Tis His to lead me there, not mine but His...
At any cost, dear Lord, by any road.

So faith bounds forward to its goal in God,
and love can trust her Lord to lead her there.
Upheld by Him, my soul is foll'wing hard,
Till God hath full fulfilled my deepest prayer.

No matter if the way be sometimes dark,
No matter though the cost be oft-times great,
He knoweth how I best shall reach the mark,
The way that leads to Him must needs be straight.

One thing I know, I cannot say Him nay;
One thing I do, I press on towards my Lord.
My God, my Glory here from day to day,
And in the glory there, my Great Reward.

- Frederick Brook

********************************************

Love is also one of the Fruits of the Spirit

Galatians 5 v 22-23

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance (self-control): against such there is no law.”

The fruit contrasts well against the works of the flesh in verses 19 – 21.

Fruit develops on the trees, so sometimes our fruit may be a little ‘immature’, but the fruit will develop and improve over time as we go through life’s trials and pleasures. We need to allow the Lord to develop this fruit in our lives. He will!

A good friend of mine used to preach that people should be able to come and 'pick' the fruit as they needed. Something to think about - can people do that from the fruit in my life? Will they find peace with me when they have found strife, or gentleness where there was harshness? There is so much hatred and turbulence in life today; O to be an oasis of the Fruit of the Spirit.

Suzy

Thank you for your posts on this thread, Suzy. A real blessing each time.

Jeannette

 2008/1/19 16:42
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Annie, you left out verses 4-6. How come?


"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:"



How come?


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 16:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

broclint wrote:

Sad that so many are focused upon "MY" gift, rather than His "unspeakable Gift" (see 2 Corinthians 9:15) and rather than merely seeking God until He commands, period! Paul undoubtedly was the most "gifted" Christian that has ever lived in intellect, spiritual gifts, anointed energy and zeal for God, and etc... and no doubt served at the Lord's leading in all the above gifts... But, as other threads here have pointed out, his focus was upon the "ONE THING I DO". And his focus was not upon what he HAD done, past tense, but upon continually and constantly and consistently seeking to know the Lord Jesus Christ, counting any and all suffering in that quest as unworthy of mentioning, for the sheer joy of pleasing Christ.

Those who would aspire to exercise some "gift" will no doubt find with the minimal research in church history that the "gift" of suffering, being crushed, being mutilated as far as this flesh is concerned (as Peter also says) is usually (not always) the prerequiste to the fragrance of Christ coming out in their lives.

Clint

Thank you Bro, that is so true, Amen and Amen.

Not looking forward to the "crushing", but if its necessary, so be it...

As said elsewhere in other threads, I eventually gave up trying to find out what [i]my[/i] gift/gifts/ministry etc were. The Lord took away the need to struggle to "do, do do" and began to teach how to [i]"be"[/i], which is the only way to produce fruit. ...Contentment with the "as and when", day by day simply seeking to follow Him.

But I'm still a very slow learner :-(

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/1/19 16:49
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Also Annie, if I could ask you this:


What do you hope to accomplish by this discussion? As I had asked before, what is the point for this thread, as you see it?



Thanks.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/19 16:49Profile





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