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ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

How did the Lord Jesus respond to what Nicodemus said about Him?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/8 17:02Profile









 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?


Hi Logic,

I liked your point about context, and went back to read more of the chapter, not merely the preceding verse. I see why you want to make it a work of man, to believe Jesus, but I also see that Chris wants to give all the glory for faith, to God, emphasising that it is God who draws us to the place of faith.

That particular point comes out very clearly in the following passage. Nevertheless, I do believe it is even easier than whether it is man or God who does the 'work' of believing, as Jesus places special emphasis on [i]seeing Him[/i]. Also, it is possible to 'see Him' and [i]not[/i] believe, which implies a choice on the part of the unbelievers, as much as a choice on the Father's part not to draw them to Jesus.

Later in John 19, Jesus comments on the blessedness of those who believe without having [i]seen[/i] Him in the flesh (or resurrected flesh). Perhaps there is an important distinction here, which is endorsed by Paul in Romans 10:9, over the importance in believing in His resurrection. As Paul also says in 1 Cor 15:14, if Christ is not risen, our faith is vain.

Related to John 6, that old proverb 'seeing is believing' comes to mind, in the light of the discussion Jesus has with the people here, esp v

John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, [u]which the Son of man shall [b]give[/b] unto you[/u]: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, [u]that we may see, and believe thee?[/u] what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That [u]ye also have seen me, [b]and believe not[/b][/u].
37 [b]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me[/b]; [u]and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out[/u].
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 [b]And this is the will of him that sent me, that [u]every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life[/u]: and I will raise him up at the last day[/b].


It seems that when the people ask Him what He's going to do so that they can see His display of power and believe in Him, He answers in several ways, the main one of which is to say, [i]I'm going to give you my flesh to eat[/i].

At the same time, He tells them that if they've seen Him, believing is the required response, but they choose rather to go away arguing about the logistics of how He could give them His flesh to eat. Sounds a lot like this discussion... in that if you want to believe that Jesus is saying the act of believing is a work, no-one can rob you of that interpretation, except perhaps Hebrews 4:9 - 11:

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God from His. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Amen.

 2008/1/8 19:00
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
How did the Lord Jesus respond to what Nicodemus said about Him?

Huh, Please refriaze that.

Again, Are you implying that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

 2008/1/8 20:21Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
dorcas wrote:

I see why you want to make it a work of man, to believe Jesus.

It is not that I [b]want[/b] to make it a work of man, it is just what it sais, you can not deny that.

Other work we must do:
[b]Rom 2:7,10[/b] [color=990000]To them who by who by endurance in [b]good works[/b] are seeking glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
[b]:10[/b] yet glory and honor and peace to every [b]worker[/b] of good, both to the Jew first, and to the Greek.[/color]

There is more, but, gotta run.

 2008/1/8 20:32Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Dorcas, how are you?


About the context,



Before this it says


Jesus answered them and said,



[b][color=660033]Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.[/color][/b]


Could that be a motive for their question that follows?


And how would God answer the spirit of such a question?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/8 21:21Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Logic,

In regards to Nicodemus I was thinking of John 3:2.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/8 21:24Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic,
How did the Lord Jesus respond to what Nicodemus said about Him?
In regards to Nicodemus I was thinking of John 3:2.

Nicodemus asked was saying, "we know that you are a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that you do, except God be with him."
Because of chapt. 2 when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables(2:15).

Then Jesus answered that by saying, "unless someone is born from above he is not able to [b]understand[/b] the kingdom of God(3:3).

What Jesus was speaking "kingdomeez" when HE said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."(19)
They did not understand it(20).
The disciples understood it only when He was raised from the dead, His disciples recalled that He said this to them(V:22).

What is your point of asking about this?

for the 3rd time, would you please eanswer my question:
Again, Are you implying that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

 2008/1/9 13:50Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi Logic.



I think there is more to what Nicodemus said than what you mentioned. I see three things in particular.



Also, why do you keep asking me this question?



Thanks,


Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/9 17:37Profile









 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work


Hi Chris,

I'm ok thank you. :-)

'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.'

You asked

Quote:
Could that be a motive for their question that follows?

Yes. I noticed this; that they seemed to think their challenge was to be able to [u]do[/u] what Jesus could do, rather like Simon the sorceror who offered money for the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:18).

It's quite a fine line. He seems to understand they might want to make bread for themselves.

Quote:
And how would God answer the spirit of such a question?

Well it seems to me that the Lord put their priorities back in order. The whole 'do'ing thing, is like 'do'ing what it says in the law. He wanted them to perceive the free gift of Himself, rather than a gift which enabled them to consume its outworking upon their own flesh.

Embedded in His reply, is the necessity of looking away from self.

 2008/1/9 17:48
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dorcas, thank you for the reply, I think it was helpfull.



"they seemed to think their challenge was to be able to do what Jesus could do, rather like Simon the sorceror who offered money for the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:18)."


I think so too.


So, how does the Lord respond, by giving them the answer to [b]their[/b] question? I don't think so.


I think He changed the emphasis, like you suggested.


They asked Him what they needed to do, to work the work[b]s[/b] of God.


I think He told them what God's work(not works) was instead.


Does that make sense?


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/9 18:07Profile





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