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 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?

Quote:
Its high time our experience start matching the verbosity of our theology.

I agree. Obviously, you missed an earlier discussion in a previous thread, where hopes of raising the dead were suggested by one poster, to be improper for today's Christians.

Me and another were on the side of doing it, though, and I am always encouraged when prayers for healing are answered miraculously, as this seems to be in keeping with the spirit of health and life - resurrection, if you will. We forget how much our lives have been changed by medicine - even by simple aspirin.

 2008/1/1 17:20
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Dorcas, I appreciate what you shared.


I was concerned after I posted these comments tonight that I might have gotten out of line in what I said. If I was please forgive me. And that is to all.


Thank you,


Chris



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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/1 19:46Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

What is the greatest miracle of all?

Colossians 1:18-19 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Colossians 1:20-22 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The miracle of birth is something we don't even to this day, completely understand. We do see the evidence of it everyday. How can we miss the miracle of rebirth, by The Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in us.

How can we not see this as the greatest miracle of all which God has now revealed to His sons'.

Taking this body of sin of whom we all are the chiefest of sinner, that is all that is against God and unable to save ourselves, in this body of death and corruption and God making us perfect before God in Christ Jesus. This is the greatest Miracle of All, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"STRIVING ACCORDING TO HIS WORKING"

How does He Work? By the Son, through the death of the Cross, by the Blood of Christ, through the resurrection of new life, by the rebirth of Christ in us.

IN CHRIST, my LIFE: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/1 20:48Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,Christinyou said Jesus must be born again in us...i thought to myself we must be born in Him ... i prayed and like a lot of things in the bible; it is not either or, but both and... ty for teaching an old dog.jimp

 2008/1/1 22:12Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Thank you jimp,

Amen, He is in us and we in Him, praise God.

1Cr 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;

1Cr 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Cr 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

How can we know the Spirit of Christ unless He is in us as our Spirit.

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.


Us in Him:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

My Prayer:

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Finally:

Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

In Him, Amen

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


In Christ: That is me in Him: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/1/1 22:44Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
Logic, regarding Galatians 4:19 you said
Quote:
"That would be a Christ like character, not christ Himself being born in us."

But where does it say that?

It is implyed.
If one is already saved, he already has Christ in him.
Why would one need Christ to be formed in him if he already has Christ in him?
Because thay nees their own character to be conformed to HIS.
[b]2Peter 1:5-7[/b] [color=990000]And for this reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[b]:6[/b] And to knowledge self control; and to self control patience; and to patience godliness;
[b]:7[/b] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness love.[/color]

Quote:
Is Christ's character seperate from Christ Himself? What do you mean?

I'm sure that you have some of your parents character.
Thatr does not mean that they are in you bringing it about. It is just that you lived with them for so long, they rubbed off on to you.

Quote:
Prior to this in verse 6 it says


"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

In John 14:18 the Lord says

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

That word comfortless in greek is "orphanos"
He will not leave us orphaned.
He will come to us and we will receive power to become witnesses(Act 1:8).
He is our Helper:
[b]John 14:16[/b] [color=990000]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Helper, that he may abide with you forever;[/color], John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:7.
HE is not the doer, but the helper.

Quote:
Quote:
"The branch(us) bears the fruit, the vine(Jesus) enables the branch."

In Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18, the Lord Jesus, speaking about wine I think, reffers to it as the fruit of the vine.

John 14:16 is specificly speeking of our works of/from faith that HE calls fruit.
Not wine.

Quote:
Isn't it that the branches hold the fruit that the vine is bearing? Everything for life comes from the vine, not the branches, right? And again, the fruit in Galatians 5 is not called the fruit of the believer.

Without branches, the vine can not bear fruit.
The "Fruit of the Spirit must be manifested by our own yielding to HIS spirit.

[b]Rom 6:13[/b] [color=990000]Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.[/color], Rom 6:16, Rom 6:19.
HE also sais, "[b]abide[/b] in me"
That means to continue, dwell, endure, stay present, remain, stand, tarry. It is our initiative.

Quote:
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."

That is in context with spreding the Gosple.
[b]2Corinth 4:5-7[/b] [color=990000]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
[b]:6[/b] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
[b]:7[/b] But we have this treasure in earthen vessels...[/color]
This "Tresure" is the illumination of the knowledge of the glory of God, the Gosple in verse 5.
The Earthen vessle is the man who brings it.
The treasure or “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God.”
The fragile “earthen vessel” is the body, the “outward man”

[b]2Corinth 4:7b[/b] [color=990000]that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.[/color]
— that the power of the ministry (the Holy Spirit), in respect to its surpassing “excellency,” exhibited in winning souls(1Corinth 2:4) and in sustaining us ministers of the Gosple, might be ascribed solely to God, we being weak as earthen vessels.

Quote:
Quote:
"The work that we do of GOD(not from GOD) is to believe on Him.

But where does it say that?

In context.
[b]John 6:28[/b] [color=990000]Then they said to Him, [b]What may we do that [u]we may work[/u][/b] the works of God?[/color]
Jesus replies that the work which they may do is to believe into Him whom that One sent(Joh 6:29b).

Quote:
This is the same context in which He says all that are given to Him will come to Him(v37), that no one can come to Him except God draws them(v44),

I gave you the correct context, however, to know how God "draws" is in the last part of [b]Joh 6:45b[/b] [color=990000]So then everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me;[/color]

Quote:
and also that everyone that is taught by God and that have heard and learned will come to Him(v45). Whose working here, isn't it God at work?

Yes, God is always at work, but it is up tho man to descide to listen.

Who is it that will hear?
[b]John 5:25[/b] [color=990000]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when [b]the [u]dead shall hear[/u] the voice of the Son of God[/b]: and they that hear shall live.[/color]
It is not the ones who are so called "regenerated".

Quote:
Regarding Hebrews 13:20 I'm not clear what you were saying, maybe you could rephrase it?

I was responding to Christinyou who wrote
Quote:
Faith without works is dead?

Then this must also apply; works without faith are dead self works. Which comes first the Chicken or the egg?



Quote:
I noticed you emphasised to do. In John 14:10 the Lord Jesus said it was His Father that did the works.

In context of Heb 13:21, it is us that brings forth HIS will by the the God of peace making us complete in every good work.
However, in John 14:10, Jesus is speaking about HIMSELF.
He does the miracles through us as we yield to HIS Spirit.

 2008/1/2 17:37Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us.

Romans 6
3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were [u]baptized [b]to Christ Jesus, to his death[/b] were baptized?[/u]
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even [u]as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life[/u] might walk.

1 Corinthians 15
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, 21 for since through man [i]is[/i] the death, also through man [i]is[/i] a rising again of the dead,
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

Galatians 2
20 with Christ I have been crucified, [b]and live [u]no more[/u] do I[/b], and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God,


That part of Romans 6:4 referring to Jesus' resurrection, is translated in my interlinear as 'from among the dead', but Tyndale has 'from death'. There is also the assumption that being raised to newness of life [u]automatically[/u] leads to [u]walking[/u] in the Spirit.

Still, no where is Jesus "born again".
Or even "born again in us"

Quote:
If we do not say that Jesus was somehow 'born again' through His resurrection, on what basis can we claim to be 'born again' through participating in His by faith? Seriously?

[b]Titus 3:5[/b] [color=990000]He [b]saved[/b] us through the [b]washing of regeneration[/b] and [b]renewal of the Holy[/b] Spirit,[/color]
Jesus was never saved.
Jesus was never washed.
Jesus was never renewed.

[b]1Peter 1:23[/b] [color=990000]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.[/color]
Jesus was never born from corruptible seed.

[b]John 3:3[/b] [color=990000]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born from above(again), he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/color]
Jesus was never born from below.
Or
Jesus never needed to be born from above since He is the "above which we need to be born from.

I can not belive that you are asking this.

 2008/1/2 17:47Profile









 Re: Is Believing Jesus' Words a Work?


Hi Logic,

Thanks for your response.

Quote:
Jesus never needed to be born from above since He is the "above which we need to be born from.

He didn't need to attend the temple either, or to be baptised, but He went through those things to show us 'the Way' (John 14).

For many years I resisted the idea that Jesus should be [i]in[/i] me. I was happy to receive the Holy Spirit, by which I cry 'Father' - the spirit of adoption. But... there is a real gear shift if one once begins to believe 'Christ is in me'. And because it's the [i]risen[/i] (crucified) Christ whom I have met, who reveals the Father to me, as He makes His abode in me, I find that I am in Him. You will find, if you look out for it in the New Testament, both of these 'in Him' and [He]'in us' (and 'by us'.

The only way that the life of God can be 'by us' is if it is 'in us' first. This is the growth of the incorruptible Seed. That's one picture which brings its own parallels, such as Christ being born in us.

To be honest, if you reject a verse like Gal 4:19, you can't expect to find agreement even in spirit, with those whose terminology may be slightly idiosyncratic, but nevertheless carries the intent of scripture. We're all a bit unique in the way we express ourselves and sometimes the only safe thing to do is quote scripture precisely.

I can't stay late tonight... so I apologise if this seems brusque. No offence intended.

Happy New Year. :-)

 2008/1/2 18:04
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
Show me where Jesus is ever born again in us?

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

That is "we must be born again", not Jesus .

Quote:
Blah, blah, blah...ect...

Within all your post, I see no where Jesus is "born again in us"
You are only trying to manipulate the Scripture to your emotionalism, sentimental, romantic speculations of Christ.
You are very close to error that leads to heresy.
This is not a doctrine, it is your molded, artificial or false use of the term.
You are going to far with it.

I will repeat:
[b]Titus 3:5[/b] [color=990000]He [b]saved[/b] us through the [b]washing of regeneration[/b] and [b]renewal of the Holy[/b] Spirit,[/color]
Jesus was never saved.
Jesus was never washed.
Jesus was never renewed.

[b]1Peter 1:23[/b] [color=990000]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.[/color]
Jesus was never born from corruptible seed.

[b]John 3:3[/b] [color=990000]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born from above(again), he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/color]
Jesus was never born from below.
Or
Jesus never needed to be born from above since He is the "above which we need to be born from.

As you say that Jesus was "born again" you stray from the truth.

 2008/1/2 18:05Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
dorcas wrote:

For many years I resisted the idea that Jesus should be [i]in[/i] me.

I am not resisting the idea that Jesus is in me.

Quote:
The only way that the life of God can be 'by us' is if it is 'in us' first. This is the growth of the incorruptible Seed. That's one picture which brings its own parallels, such as Christ being born in us.

To be born is to be native to the locale stated, in us. This is very wrong.


Not Born, implanted, yes. indwelt, yes. to have come in to us, yes. to posses us, yes. NOT BORN AGAIN IN US!!!

Quote:
To be honest, if you reject a verse like Gal 4:19, you can't expect to find agreement even in spirit, with those whose terminology may be slightly idiosyncratic, but nevertheless carries the intent of scripture.

The Scripture does not have any intent of Christ being "Born again in us"

Did you even read the responce that I gave to Gal 4:19?
You can not refute it.
Christ is in them while HE needs to be formed in them.
This can not be that HE is born again in us.

 2008/1/2 18:19Profile





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