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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?

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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Dorcas, one thing that totally blows me away is the "sequence of events" prior to his crucifiction. Everything had to go as planned. The roman occupation,the exact disciples,the colt had to be there ,the corrupt high priest,john the baptist, Jesus' baptism,the fact that the romans left animal sacrifice in place,judas had to be chosen,judas plan had to go as planned,not to mention the miracle of the geneologies,or the passover feast ,and on and on.
anything left out and the savior of the world could not have redeemed mankind


MINDBOGGLING!!!

David

 2007/12/14 12:46Profile









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?


David said

Quote:
anything left out and the savior of the world could not have redeemed mankind

Yes. This aspect of prophecy fulfilled has to be taken as seriously as all the rest. We have to be prepared to have our understanding of prophecy refined by the words by which Jesus indicated He would be killed by Gentiles, as much as by any other word. We see that the disciples took [i]this word[/i] as seriously as any of the others.

 2007/12/14 12:57
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Linn, I don't know what you are looking for but God in His providence and preparation or all that Christ would be the working out of His plan, making son's of His own loins to bring son's into His house because He wanted to be a Father.

In the carrying out of His perfect plan, it is God who ultimately killed His own son to bring Him forth as the first born among many son's. Sacrifice the Man to get the Seed, that would bring forth the many that are God's own birthed sons and daughters for His House. The Body of Christ the Church The Bride of the Son and the family He planned before the foundation of the World.

Please bring us to what that well put together soul of yours and the mind of Christ that is being perfected in you is seeking and share with us what Christ wants us to know.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/12/15 3:15Profile









 Re: I'm not joking... who do you believe killed Jesus?


David asked

Quote:
Dorcas , was Jesus in anyway mistreated by the jews in his"trial". Im just wondering.

Hi David,

Over a period of time, I've slowly begun to get my head round what actually happened to Jesus, and to understand some of the issues which those events should raise in the minds of Christians for their own understanding of how they might be treated by the religientsia of their situation.

After Judas had betrayed Jesus, he tried to give back the money [i]to the priests who had paid him in the first place[/i] and this is what the hypocrites said:

Matthew 27:6
But the chief priests took the silver pieces and said, "[u]It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, because they are the price of blood[/u]."

It makes it sound as if it is 'lawful' to conspire to put a man to death and to pay for the services of an informant. Can this really be true of [u]the Law[/u]? ... let alone the [i]chief[/i] priests who were supposed to be carrying out the ordinances of the Old Covenant?

The mind boggles!

Luke's account is informative. The sword and club-bearing rabble were made up of 'chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to Him'. He said to them (22:53) 'When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.' 54 Then took they him, and led [i]him[/i], and brought him into the high priest's house.

63 And the men that held Jesus [see above who those were - a selection of the religientsia] mocked him, and smote [i]him[/i].
64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee?
65 And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.
66 And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council,

I feel like putting 'council' in inverted commas, because this was merely the public face of a most disreputable group of men.

70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, [b]Ye say[/b] that I am.
71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

Here again in vv 70 and 71, we see they were willing to twist anything He said for their own ends. It was as if [i]whatever He could have said[/i], they would have turned it into [i]the opposite[/i].

The reason they had to try to get the local Roman government employees to condemn Him to death though, was because the Roman law had blocked all killings under [i]Jewish[/i] religious law. (Which raises a question about what happened to Stephen later.) So at this point, the Jews could [i]not carry out any death sentence[/i] under the Old Covenant - not that Jesus was guilty of anything [u]at all[/u] under the Old Covenant! And so they had to find some other reason by which the Romans would accept that He was a danger to Caesar's government.

Of course, we later find Pilate being advised by his wife to have nothing to do with condemning Jesus due to His innocence, (Matt 27:19), but by then, there is a civil disorder issue going on outside his judgement hall, and he succumbs to the crowd.


Another twist to the injustice of this situation, is that Jesus most especially had [i]not[/i] incited any rebellion against Caesar, even when given the opportunity by the question of tribute, when He had said 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's'. It cannot be an accident that scripture records His very words, further underlining the [u]dis[/u]honesty of His captors.

Matthew 26
59 Now [u]the chief priests, and elders, and [b]all[/b] the council[/u], [b]sought false witness against Jesus[/b], to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, [i]yet[/i] found they none.



 2007/12/15 9:41









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?


David mentioned

Quote:
The roman occupation

In researching for my other thread 'a rod of iron = a cross?' I learned that Judea was taken over by Rome only 2 years before His birth.

As you say, God has everything lined up.

 2007/12/15 9:44









 Re: I'm not joking ... who do you believe killed Jesus?



Phillip said

Quote:
Please bring us to what that well put together soul of yours and the mind of Christ that is being perfected in you is seeking and share with us what Christ wants us to know.

Dear Phillip,

Your timing is impeccable. After psalm1 (David) had posted yesterday, I knew it would be soon...

David said
Quote:
Now that you mention it, it really could NOT have been a "jewish" crrucifiction. Nothting about it was jewish.

Right. Apart from anything else, the Jews did not 'do' crucifixion.

So, Phillip, this is what's on my mind....

Earlier in the thread, (p2) I listed eight places where Old Testament prophecy is brought to our attention by the gospel writers.

What is different about this prophecy, is that Jesus Himself made it. It's not the only one He made (for instance, where the famous colt would be found), but, like His prophecy that He would rise on the third day, (which John connects with the temple question), this is His own word about His own death.

This time, it is [i]John[/i] who makes the Roman connection to two Old Testament prophecies.

John 19
31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [i]that[/i] they might be taken away.

32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.

33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

35 And he that saw [i]it[/i] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

37 And again another scripture saith, [u]They[/u] shall look on [u]him whom [b]they[/b] pierced[/u].


Zechariah 12:10 second part of the verse

and [u]they shall look upon me whom they have pierced[/u], and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [i]his[/i] only [i]son[/i], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [i]his[/i] firstborn.


:-o

It's not about the Jews?

 2007/12/15 10:02
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

dorcas, now I am wondering if this leads farther? because there is a point in that I personally ascrribed the murder of Jesus to the Jews in that they said "let his blood be upon us.....And our children". But now I wonder if possible the answer came back for that statement......" I wont curse my people"

Im not saying this is true. I havent formed a position yet.

David

 2007/12/15 12:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.


Zechariah 12:10 second part of the verse

and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

:-o


It's not about the Jews?



Now I think I understand what you are getting at....more of this God is finished with Israel kind of stuff, taking words directed for and About Israel, and applying them to Gentiles. :-?

The Story of Joseph is parallel to this, as Joseph was thought to be dead by his brothers own hands, but was by one brother sold into slavery, to the Gentiles. Joseph refused to bow to the god of egypt, but rather through ***Joseph's God**, Egypy was blessed beyond measure.

When Israel came to Egypt, after God had brought a great drout, the brothers then discovered Joseph alive, and were grieved at what **they** had done.

God does work in mysterious ways to bring about His purpose and plan of redemption to ALL who have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

 2007/12/15 12:25
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

When Jesus took the cup in the garden and saw in it the sin of the whole world, that is every individual from the beginning of creation, Jesus even ask God to take this cup from Him, "yet not my will but yours", was His answer by His always doing the will of the Father, it is His faith and obedience that brings this cup to the table. God has always wanted to be a Father, from before the foundation of the world. He tried with Satan and that failed because sin was found in him and he wanted to be above God and make himself his own god. Can you imagine being the Son of God and looking into that cup and knowing that all the terrible sin of the whole world He would have to put into His body and the shedding of His own blood would be the only thing that could save a people for God His Father and now ours. The awful sin of all that have lived is what killed Jesus Christ. Praise God out of death comes life. Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Any created being cannot be truly a son of God. That is why Jesus Christ had to be born of a woman. That is why this Jesus must be born again in each believer that He is no longer just a created being but a birthed son by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Now we are son's and daughters of the Living God who has become "Our Father who art in heaven".

That cup that Jesus drank in the Garden was every sin from Adam to every last man and woman up until this moment in time and beyond.
It has always been the individual, making up the family of God, He has shown it cannot be accomplished by a national race of people, Israel being the proof. It has to come to each individual by being birthed a son of God by His Son and then we are His body which is called the Church, baptized into one Spirit, that is Christ in you the hope of Glory, The Spirit of Christ which without we are none of His.

Israel, the Jews just turned Him over to the executioner, which was the Roman nation, but it was each person that Jesus Went to the Cross for. Yes God has said He will save all Israel because of His promise which He cannot repent of. But it is now that we are concerned with, that is the salvation of each individual that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He makes each individual that believes sons' also.

It was not Israel the Jews that killed Jesus it is all that have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God which is now Jesus Christ birthed in the believer, "the hope of glory".

"It is not about the Jew"

Its about a Father, A Son, and many sons and daughters, and the death of sin, brings many sons to glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/12/16 3:45Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Dorcas I looked and couldnt tell if you addressd the comparison of saul and David? specifically if david acted on principle or law of leadership. [David being at that point executioner of countryman and king?]
This interests me in that David had the option with his servant to see saul killed.


David

 2007/12/16 13:20Profile





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