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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:

allhavsinned wrote:
Withoug rambling on I just want to say that I still like Todd, he's overall a better Christian than I am...



Why would you say something like that? Is it because that is something he would say, or something He would say? Don't sell yourself short or let others sell you short. Only the Lord makes that judgement, and we are not to compare ourselves with ohers. Try not top be swayed by soothing words.

[u][b]2 Corinthians 10:11-12[/b][/u]

[i]For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you.[/i]

Quote:
and He knows the scriptures more than I, that's why I'm not writing this to him, he'd just bury me in theology.



The great thing about theology is that you can choose one that will fit into what you want to believe. We all do this to a certain degree. Just because he knows his theology more or better then you know yours, [u]doesn't[/u] mean that you are wrong (in context of hearing from God). Listen to what the Lord is telling you. If he wishes to mock those that disagree with him, then that is a road that he needs to be careful on, not you.

Quote:
So I've come to you guys to find the truth, it appears so far that I'm heading in the right direction, are there anythings I'm falling short on?



Just trust in what the Spirit is working in you. Keep praying for wisdom and revelation on this subject, the Lord will get you through.

Quote:
Just one quickie, if the scripture is sufficient as he says (of course it is) why do we need the book 'Decisions Decisions' (available at WOTMR) to be able to understand the bible better?



Well, my opinion is that we is humans tend to like to hear man's interpretations and meaning of scripture, then listening to the Word itself.

Quote:
Can not God's Holy Spirit guide us as we read it, to understand it better? I think this is the point Greg was making above.



[u][b]Colossians 2:1-10[/b][/u]

[b]Not Philosophy but Christ[/b]

[i]For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.
As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.[/i]

I understand that brother Todd may not hear from God, but keep listening for/to the Lord. It pleases the Father to give you the Kingdom. Don't let anyone take that away from you.

In Chirst


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/11/29 23:26Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

For myself, I feel there are a couple things we need to sort out in regards to this topic. First off, I really haven't systemized all of this theologically yet :-) ...but I heartily agree the Lord does speak to us brethren.

My wife reminds me from time to time that when we first met, she heard the Lord audibly tell her that I was going to be her husband. Now I felt I wanted to marry her as well in the same moment, but I didn't hear the Lord's voice audibly. To my pleasant surprise after two weeks into our Christian friendship, she broke up with her boyfriend of 7 years and let me into her life. When I proposed 9 months later, she told me what she had heard. In 17 years of ups and downs, at times facing trials that could've given her fair reason to question the sanity of her earlier confidence, she's never doubted the reality of the Lord's calling and pleasure in our marriage.

----------------------------------------

One more testimony...

A few years ago I was driving a good hour's distance from my home to meet a friend at a resturaunt. While on the way to the meeting, I was distraught over an unrelated matter; complaining to the Lord about some things I didn't like about my make-up and personality. Basically, I was feeling sorry for myself, blaming the Lord for my fears and anxieties. I was challenging Him, wanting to know why he made me "so inadequate", when he wanted me to do "these difficult things".

Well, once I arrived at the resturaunt I put on my social face and prepared to engage in some light hearted chatter with my friend over hamburgers. A woman, who was a complete stranger to me, approached our table and politely interrupted our conversation to tell me directly: "The Lord says that even though you are 'so inadequate', he is going to do 'these difficult things' through you!" Then she smiled and walked away. I was too stunned to even thank her properly...and my friend didn't know what to think. In a few seconds I realized that this kind lady had just prophesied to me, but by that time she was gone.

In both of these cases, I practice a sort of hopeful reservation...not a sketpicism but a stillness. I believe the Lord does speak, but I try to keep myself within the testimony of scripture first, being patient, quiet and simple about the conclusions I infer from more personal, albiet valid, experiences.

But Mary kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart...

Now the sorting of these things out...Like many in this thread I know the most important 'voice' is scripture. I would go so far as to say...scripture is the only necessary voice.

The Gospel of Jesus is first and foremost an objective truth. Jesus' ressurection is a verifiable fact of history. After this ground zero event, we Christians trust Christ for salvation not because of our subjective validations, but because of the actuality and authority of scripture's record of God's power and intent to ressurrect us as well.

Idiosyncratic, exceptional, out of the ordinary personal messages...this is how we often hope God will speak to us...preferring unconventional ways over the convention of scripture. We may share wonderous accounts with one another of Jesus speaking and touching us in specific ways...but we will encourage one another the most only with the whole account of scripture.

Believing what we cannot always sense, what we hold to be true in God's word, is how we are kept from being anchorless emotional wrecks seeking one form of fleeting experience after another. The simple hearted believer rests in the objectively verified historicalness of the bible. Historical, unchanging, reliable, factual, tangible, physical, actual,...these biblical attributes are what seperates our faith from mysticism and spiritualism.

I was talking to my oldest son the other day...(actually preaching to him...) about how he can trust the Lord regardless of his subjective feelings or experiences. God's word, the bible, is to be trusted above all your senses, emotions, intellect, and experiences...uphold the clear written truth of scripture above any other voice son! And if we never hear an audible voice, or have a warm feeling of inspiration inside, we can still know that on the third day Jesus rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty...and will keep us who have put our faith in him.

In this sense, Todd Friel is perfectly equpped for every good work inspite of his cessationist confession. He has a relationship with Jesus through faith according to the scriptures, which is evidenced by the spiritual fruit in his life.

...and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/11/30 0:10Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Thanks Compton, You put things into such good perspective.

I too put scripture above everything, and I think the main point Todd is trying to get across is that we can't trust our feelings or the voices in our head, but we can trust the Word. I guess for every instance we put forward for when we have heard from God, he can site a case when someone heard from God and went out and did something stupid.

It's best to be cautious, but we should allow God to speak to us how He wants to. If we're burried in the scriptures we can soon discern the voices.

Steve


_________________
Ste

 2007/11/30 0:36Profile
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
by allhavsinned on 2007/11/30 11:57:57

Just to put you all in the picture, if you go to WayOfTheMaster Radio and listen to Hour2 of 29th November, Todd gives a good 10 mins to this subject and clearly says that God only speaks through the bible, not audibly.

The question he askes is 'is Scripture sufficient' and then goes on to say that if you believe that then you don't need to hear God's voice, but if you claim to hear God speaking to you then you don't believe that Scripture is sufficient. I am sorry but Todd is dead wrong on this, as is mentioned above by bible believing Christians who have heard the voice of God.

Yes the scriptures are sufficient but why does that stop God from speaking. Todd believes that if God speaks another word (small w) then He is giving a new revelation!



He also used as an example Oral Roberts University, an institution irrefutably regarded by both cessationists and faithful continualists alike as teaching false doctrine (i.e., Word of Faith).

It's the classic "Strawman" argument.


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/11/30 5:17Profile
Lawevangelis
Member



Joined: 2004/10/9
Posts: 97
Justin, TX

 Re:

Steve,

In the context of John 10, Jesus has been teaching. The point is that those who are His sheep receive His teaching. It is not a passage which we can build a doctrine concerning God speaking to us on with impressions, voices, dreams or anything else.

Isaiah 30:19-21 is a prophecy for Jewish people which most Bible scholars believe will be fulfilled in the Millenial Kingdom. Unless you are a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and living in the Millenial Kingdom, this doesn't apply to you. This is why theological and immediate context is so important in understanding the Word. Otherwise you can make it say whatever you want.

Most of the replies to my post have only proved what I'm saying. People have responded with testimonies of something they think has been God speaking to them and good things have happened because of their experience. But experience is relative. That's why Mormons have the "burning in the bosom" experience. You can never tell them anything different about that experience because, after all, they have had it. The same with people who have seen UFO's.

I contend that Christianity is unique from cults and other religions because of the Word of God. It does lead us, God does speak to us through it. We need no further revelation.

Blessings,

Jon


_________________
Jon Speed

 2007/11/30 10:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Most of the replies to my post have only proved what I'm saying. People have responded with testimonies of something they think has been God speaking to them and good things have happened because of their experience. But experience is relative.



Not when the word of God confirms it!

 2007/11/30 11:25
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Jon, another straw man, you're now saying what we believe is cultish.

You didn't answer the question about what of those who have no bible. When I went to a church in Africa, they had a time of telling their dreams and the pastor would tell the interpritation. I thought that was dodgy, and it may be but it's origins come from when Christians had no bible and the only way they could learn was God would speak to them, usually in dreams, and they would bring it to the congregation and the more mature Christians would discuss it. that's not too dissimilar than when you say

Quote:

Lawevangelis wrote:
most Bible scholars believe will be fulfilled in the Millenial Kingdom. Unless you are a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and living in the Millenial Kingdom, this doesn't apply to you.



It is people interpriting the word of God for you.

I have read the comments of others and I am satisfied that what I have learned about hearing God over the last five years is still good, I am not building a doctrine (that's another attack to suggest we are moving away from the norm) I am growing in the Spirit.

I have even done what Todd tells us to do, Read the Word, seek Godly council and make your decision, that I have come to a different conclusion than you suggests that God has no definitive statement (is that an odioxron? I have no Idea how to spell that but Todd often talks about it)

Steve


_________________
Ste

 2007/11/30 17:55Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Sorry to double post, but I've been thinking, Jon hasn't come up with any scriptures to say that God does not talk to anyone, the Scripture in Isaiah he suggests is for the Millenial kingdom and so God will speak then which means (if you follow Jon's logic) that while we are in the church age God doesn't speak (audibly) but He will start again when Jesus returns. This looks like building a doctine to me.

Quote:

Lawevangelis wrote:

God does speak to us through it [the Word]. We need no further revelation.




I contend that because God tells me audibly to go and say sorry to my wife, he's not giving a new revelation (what's new about that it's all through the bible) He's just guiding us through the Spirit like He promised.

I've just had another thought , if we say that the Holy Spirit speaks to us (audibly) instead of God doing the speaking, does that solve any thing? May be its just a misunderstanding, you can clarify this, Jon, by telling us how the comforter comforts us without using words (and remember not everyone has a bible)

One last point that I thought of when I read...

Quote:
testimonies of something they think has been God speaking to them



Does that sound like Genesis 3:1 where the serpent questions whether or not God has spoken (though I realise in this context it's truer to say that the serpent was questioning what God had said not whether or not He said it) it is still doubting God and His ability to guide us when we need it.


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Ste

 2007/11/30 18:34Profile
Lawevangelis
Member



Joined: 2004/10/9
Posts: 97
Justin, TX

 Re:

allhavsinned,

Speaking of straw men...

Using yet another experience (the church in Africa) to try to prove anything is yet another example of relativism. Or at least pragmatism ("Hey, it works, so it must be right.") I notice that you are ignoring the example of other religions who basically do the same thing with their experiences. That, my brother, is not a straw man argument. That is reality and illustrates the point why it's so vital to have a solid foundation built on the Word and not subjective, relativistic experiences.

And the worst straw man argument award in this discussion goes to the contention about the cultures who have no Bibles. Talk about a speculative point. It's similar to the straw man argument used on most college campuses about the cultures who have never heard of Jesus: do they go to Hell when they die?

The bottom line is that you have a Bible and I know that you know how to read it because you have quoted from it. Let's deal with real situations for the time being and realize that there are very few churches where there are not Bibles or at least portions of the Bible which have been translated.

Do you need God to tell you to apologize to your wife when you already have Ephesians 5:25-32? Could it be possible that it's just your conscience dealing with you because you know you have violated God's command?

As far as "building a doctrine" is concerned, it is. When did "doctrine" become evil? There's no such thing as a Christian who does not build doctrines; for example, the doctrine of the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, etc.

But the question is, "Do basic hermeneutics support reveal that the text in Isaiah is teaching what you claim?" Forget my eschatology for a minute and you still have the issue of that Scripture dealing with Jewish believers because that's what the text actually says.

In Christ,

Jon




_________________
Jon Speed

 2007/11/30 21:25Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 God speaks alright...

bro John
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Jesus spoke to men when He was here and said Holy Spirit would come and teach us and lead us into all Truth. Just as men heard His voice then, men hear it now. when John wrote the Revelation he said he heard a voice behind him, that's pretty evident to me that God speaks to men still, why would He stop if He has so done all the while? one might say that the canon wasn't complete but there is no point in it where He said that He'd stop speaking to men. or do you know where the word says God doesn't speak to men any more?

you said:


Quote:
Using yet another experience (the church in Africa) to try to prove anything is yet another example of relativism. Or at least pragmatism ("Hey, it works, so it must be right.") I notice that you are ignoring the example of other religions who basically do the same thing with their experiences. That, my brother, is not a straw man argument. That is reality and illustrates the point why it's so vital to have a solid foundation built on the Word and not subjective, relativistic experiences.



well we could say the same for what you have said that in your experience/understanding of scripture, God doesn't speak to men audibly any more.we could say that this is also a relative view based on your own experience/understanding However there are testimonies from some here which refute that and not only that but confirm that God still speaks to some audibly because there are confirmations from witnesses (other brethren) and most importantly what has been heard lines up with the word of God (scripture) rather than contradict it.

the experiences of John, Paul, the disciples and many others say God speaks to men still, audibly. Paul heard the voice of Jesus on the Damascus road, John heard it on Patmos, Art Katz has heard it, bro Mike C. has heard it and had it confirmed by witnesses (brethren) and the word of God.

God may not speak to you in an audible voice but He does speak to some in that manner and will continue to do so.

Quote:
The bottom line is that you have a Bible and I know that you know how to read it because you have quoted from it. Let's deal with real situations for the time being and realize that there are very few churches where there are not Bibles or at least portions of the Bible which have been translated.



well i don't know how many churches in the early days had access to the full canon of the time as we do for them to read leisurely, however as they gathered we know the Spirit of God was present and spoke through men.

Quote:
Do you need God to tell you to apologize to your wife when you already have Ephesians 5:25-32? Could it be possible that it's just your conscience dealing with you because you know you have violated God's command?



but isn't one's conscience the Voice of God? i don't think the 2 are separate. There are times when i have in mind to do or say something i ought not to and i hear His Voice saying "don't you do that..."

The way God speaks to each of us is Manifold, some hear His voice, others see it in His word, others see visions, some dream dreams and so on and so forth so God isn't limited in terms of His methods of communicating. The bottom line is we ought to observe the message and check the fruit and see because if it is God speaking through whatever way, audible or not, the fruit is always good, if it's the enemy, the fruit is always bad. The enemy can use the scriptures and twist them to mislead men which is what i believe to have happened with these wird doctrines which are going about and have been going about.

Quote:
As far as "building a doctrine" is concerned, it is. When did "doctrine" become evil? There's no such thing as a Christian who does not build doctrines; for example, the doctrine of the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, etc.



well there are doctrines of demons which men can pick up and run with when satan deceives...so not every doctrine is good.

however God speaks to you may He continue to do so to His Glory and however He speaks to us all may HE continue and complete the work He began.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/1 2:10Profile





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