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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Just considering ...

Quote:
Mike I respect you and your opinions very much and I know we both do both love each other and there has been times in the past you have stood your ground for me and I would never expect a brother in Christ to do this all the time because it would make you look like your on the fence and we don't want anyone to perceive us as fence straddlers.



Brother, that is a wonderful way of putting it and I concur wholeheartedly, it is one the pleasures of having you here, always has. You have, as you stated further on, always been one to take things into account and to consider them ... The effect of this draws I am certain others to do likewise, if there is any thing that I could pray for more of it is just this; to honestly assess, consider and re-consider rather than to jump to conclusions and presumptions, assumptions. I can tell you I have and continue to learn so much from all the things discussed here within that loose frame work.

Quote:
Mike I am not condoning nor justifying nice expensive cars and homes and etc. for Ministers or "ANYONE" you can go back and read all my posts on this and you will not find were I have said anything about all this. This started out as a prosperity thread, prosperity more than likely has a different definition to all of us. Mike I am a little hurt that for one minute you don't think I have ever been were Jim ministers in the streets, did you sum that up because I am a member of Lakewood? Brother I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth during a 9 month period of my 34 year marriage my wife and I lived on the streets "sorry a few tears here" so I have seen the worst of the worst been there done that bought the shirt, please don't stereotype me with some's perceptions of the "Lakewood" crowd, by the way have you ever attended Lakewood even once? if not I would encourage you to do so "just once" you don't have to make it a habit just walk through the doors and feel the Love and spirit and "sincere" fellowship from the "diverse" crowd of folks that attend there. I feel it's wrong to generalize all the Church members to be like the Pastor or even go as for as saying we all support all of his beliefs I go there for the word and there has been "many" times it's only take a couple words spoken by God through Pastor Joel to inspire me and lift me for a season.



I read this yesterday at lunch and didn't have time to respond, but it stabbed me as well. I apologize brother, forgive me for the poor choice of framing my words, looking back on them they sound accusatory, trouble with combining generalities with ... appeals to perception? Think that was what I was after, nonetheless, very poor on my part.

Quote:
I am really just about beat down here over the very loose words some have spoken here I can remember times here we all loved each other so much we would take a stand for them and minister them back to the Lord and leave out the name calling, but it looks like the doors of Sermonindex have been breached by old sluefoot himself and I bet he is smiling on us and a happy as a pig in the mud over the bickering here and the name calling.



Sometimes things are just left open for further examination brother ... It can be uncomfortable and I speak not towards any insinuation one way or the other. There is that first place that everything must start from and we know where that is. The words we choose, 'times and seasons', being led of the Spirit ... ramifications. Mentioned it before but believe there is much for all to consider. I am not quite sure this illustration is applicable but will just throw it out there ...

During the recent conference they gave opportunity for people to give testimony, pretty much whatever was on their heart. A sister got up and talked about how there was a disturbance at the hotel they were staying at (same one where I was staying), the police were called and apparently someone there was unable to pay for their lodging. I am repeating this from memory, forgive me if I miss some aspects to accuracy... Believe they (her husband and herself) went and bought some fast food for the man and then returned to the conference. When they got back they felt like they hadn't done enough, "why didn't we pay for his lodging?" It bothered so much they turned around, got back in the car and drove back to the hotel. When they got there, he was nowhere to be found.

That was the testimony, nothing else was really added by her, it was just left hanging in suspension and silence for all of us.

After a few moments Gareth came to the mic and mentioned briefly about this being a missed opportunity.

Would hate trying to dissect this too much, but am finding there can be a tension that is similar. After the testimony time was over (a redundant mention here) Gareth did ask us to go and find some of those very ones who got up and spoke, to pray with them, encourage them. In this situation and from what I could perceive of this sister from her heartfelt expression it would have been worse to come and say "It's O.K." when she knew and felt that it was not. What to do in a situation like that? It is neither to condemn nor to gloss things over. Just to understand often is enough, weep with those who weep. If anything at all it is a keying in on that aspect, to understand in difficult matters and still not have to relinquish into divisions just because a matter is difficult or make a compromise to appease. It is where I find myself here, where this whole thing started taking a slightly different turn from it's original content. Perfectly normal and quite alright, these are still discussions, they have a tendency to move in different directions.

Quote:
Yes brothers it's a sad day when we can't even go to Church and fellowship anymore without the feeling of being a sinner just because of a Pastors actions but I will continue to attend there until "God" tells me to get the heck out of there at that point I will not look back.
I do hope the name calling and the continued put downs do leave some with some sort of gratification here that way it's not all in vain. Lastly as I have said before we all could do a little more Ministering to ourselves in the mirror each day.



Something again to be said for longevity here, it makes a difference just by way of past discussions, things not readily known to everyone else who may be of a shorter duration. Bill, what I mentioned earlier was entirely sincere being that you have been there some time and also draw from all the resources here. It was not an insinuation or accusation at all but a true wonder of how you process all of this. That in itself might speak quite loudly if we had ears to hear (now I am accusing! ;)). One of the great problems with much of our insinuations and assumptions is to forget that a great deal is still in process, hopefully in all of our considerations, how do we know for instance that even yourself have been wrestling with this for some time? Don't let me put words in your mouth and pardon using all this for everyone else, but you have already given place to consideration in your mentions.

To flip this around ... we can forget that often we are preaching to the choir or even mis-directionally, seemingly at random, maybe too generally, certainly guilty of this.


Well for all that rambling, it is still difficult. There is still an indignation at this teaching derived from the original post here. It broadened it's scope somewhat and where I would leave off ... indictments, a dangerous proposition, just as difficult to defend all in the name of camaraderie. That has and likely will continue to be a great assumption in these parts, to leave off something or draw towards another aspect is not an automatic assimilation towards defending an opposite preposition. Will admit this is something that has driven me nut's over the years here.

Others have spoken pretty well to all of this aspect, we have to try and realize that for the better part we are not at war with each other and do not need any more sectarian violence in this unholy 'civil' war, that great contradiction.

Still ...

Root matters. This 'teaching'. The ramifications that cannot be ignored. What prosperity is and what is not. Does it truly square with scripture and with conscience, reality, experience? Does it 'play' everywhere, in other countries and constitutions, situations and circumstances. Is it 'another gospel'? Is there more than one? I brought up the searching aspect of our [url=http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php]persecuted[/url] Brethren, could anyone, would anyone dare to speak exactly the same way with the same words and same scriptures the things going out across our airwaves and books ... to say the saints locked up in [url=http://www.writingireland.com/resources/WritingIreland_CorpBro2004$28outside$29_sample.pdf]storage[/url] containers in Eritrea for their faith? Or [url=http://www.opendoorsuk.org.uk/press/releases/]other[/url] unspeakable [url=http://www.persecution.org/suffering/countrynewssumm.php?country=United%20States]horrors[/url].

There is just something very troubling that we can turn a blind eye on all this or if at best given a token nod before we are quickly right back to ... justifying a 'prosperous' lifestyle and mindset when our own [i]family[/i] members are being slaughtered for a faith that some of these ministers would have us believe is for our comfort and gain. It just doesn't compute. And to think this is just one aspect, it has already been expressed just what this whole thing can do even in locally and more personally.

I have absorbed a great deal of all the aforementioned 'teaching' and the vernacular used is such a redundancy and contortion it is enough to make one ill every time it is heard. It is no different from the 'prophetic' movement and it's nonsense and nonsensical aberrations and speaking predictions of releasing this that and the other all supposedly from the mouth of God Himself. God wants you blessed, no, He wants you miserable. He is going to destroy the economy, no, He is sending showers of 'blessings' in 'this season'. There is an 'anointing' coming, there is a collapse coming. "God told me _____". "Prove me wrong!"

I relent, it is difficult to speak to everything all at once. There is just something rather odd happening with all of this, find most of it sheer rubbish and nonsense, speculative at best, confused and muddy at worst. What I keep finding is surprises at every turn. Surprised at my own stupidity, surprised that I think I might have something pretty well understood and then recognize I am missing a great deal. Surprised by what prayer does and what it does not. Surprised when I am paying closer attention to those subtle promptings of the Spirit that seem quite contrary to a quick principle I could latch unto, one verse seemingly canceling out another in any given situation. Surprised how often the intimations are more along the lines of "keep your mouth shut", "Not now". "Hold your peace". The greatest of these and the challenge of the flesh ...

Wait.

This seems more like something of a journal entry and a ramble. Will beg off and get back to what I ought to be more preoccupied with, prayer. One last burst, since it is still percolating. This matter of prosperity and giving. The ideals and contortions of the scriptures have been so entrenched and mis-used it is just incredible. "Tithing" has been abused and convoluted so much that it is with great reluctance to even bring the word out. The churches and ministries that have propped themselves up underneath this and are abusing it, want to say it doesn't even matter what one holds to if it's 'for today' or not, it is well beyond the point and\or the principle. Please don't jump on this, we have numerous threads and discussions on it. The point is in the manipulation and the other aspects of, let me just call it what it too often ultimately is, 'forced giving'. Something jumped up in the thoughts the other day; [i]To give is a compulsion, not an extraction[/i].

There is a root problem and I think it is ultimately in the teaching itself. Some of it is in-line and quite scriptural, yet still missing the greater point. The rest of it ... already over spoken to. It's wrong emphasis and over emphasis. What seems to be missing in all these things, in all these easy to believe mantra's and contorted understandings of prosperity is a changed heart. This is what the scriptures and all of the teaching of the prophets and of our Lord amount to. It has to be the constant emphasis and the first one. Still this day wants to try and do everything backward, eat your dessert 3 hours before dinner. Come accept the Lord and we will get you all straightened out. It really is an easy thing after all. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It is a radical life to be under such true exposure, to be striped naked spiritually. To know that you are both under a microscope and a telescope. To recognize that you are both vile and ... accepted? I can only speak for myself but it is a constant wonder. The things scripture point to, are they more explanations of facts as they indeed are or are they more something of an attrition, 'this is what a good Christian does'? What I mean is, there is a great deal that is copied but not internalized. There is a lot of mockery and faking it out there, a lot of gliding past things to make them more plausible and easier to swallow. But reality is brutal, the very great line about fact's 'being difficult things' are made even more so due to our own meddling.

To get back to just the fundamentals of who God is and who we are. He is Holy and we are ... ? Proud, haughty and [i]sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing;[/i] ? It is easy to say, "that's not what I am saying at all" but do we prove it out with those greater expressions of mere words, our living?

The Lord has some very hard words for us;

[i]knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[/i]

To the church He said these things, to the church!

Today is Thanksgiving out here in the states, thankful? Oh, every day is thanksgiving. Thankful for another shot after another repeated failing. Thankful for hot water and for a job. Thankful my precious cat didn't get flattened by a car last night. Thankful the Lord hasn't left me alone despite all my attempts and giving Him every reason to leave me to my own devices. Yes, thankful He saved a wretch like me! Thankful you all put up with this ..., this long winded, rambling and certainly full of contradictions and peccadillo's man, peculiar to his own self even within this whole little sermon\treaties ...

Looks like my time is up, might we all bow our heads in prayer. Coffee and donuts will be served out in the foyer...


;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/11/22 13:23Profile









 Re: Another Minister Spending Habits Exposed


Intens4Him said:

Quote:
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye [b][u]love one another[/u][/b]; as I have loved you, that ye also [b][u]love one another[/u][/b].
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye [b][u]love one another[/u][/b], as I have loved you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye [b][u]love one another[/u][/b].
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to [b][u]love one another[/u][/b]: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to [b][u]love one another[/u][/b].
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye [b][u]love one another[/u][/b] with a pure heart fervently:
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should [b][u]love one another[/u][/b].
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and [b][u]love one another[/u][/b], as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us [b][u]love one another[/u][/b]: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us(when we didn't deserve and STILL DON'T), we ought also to [b][u]love one another[/u][/b].
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we [b][u]love one another[/u][/b]God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we [b][u]love one another[/u][/b].

Sister, I believe your list of verses above adds the third and final 'love' to God's list of priorities for His people.

Many biblical revelations have a third tranche - a way in which events of similarity can be understood spiritually, or, a third layer of meaning. I don't think I've appreciated till now, that 'love one another' is a spiritual command.... I don't really know how that passed me by.... but thank you for this post.



.... Get this.... I decided to look up 'tranche' before posting, as I wasn't sure I had the context right, although it sounds good. This is what I got from dictionary.com


tranche: a portion of something (especially money)






rofl :-P


 2007/11/22 14:55
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Thanks! Mike some food for thought and as always your words were from a person with a Sweet Spirit,
Thank you for the kind and encouraging words spoken by one of my spiritual shepherds have a Blessed day.
God Bless
Mr. Bill


_________________
Bill

 2007/11/22 15:15Profile









 Re: Another Minister Spending Habits Exposed


ZekeO said

Quote:
Maybe, I have, pray for me!

I will.... definitely....

You are a presence I miss from SI when you're not posting, and this conversation has made me more aware of the global onslaught on this matter.


I have been quite changed by this discussion. It is making me want to be more reckless for God - and I don't know if ever I have been that before.


Matthew 22
15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in [i]his[/i] [u]talk[/u].
16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any [i]man[/i]: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 [b]But Jesus perceived their wickedness[/b], and said, Why tempt ye me, [i]ye[/i] [b]hypocrites[/b]?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, [b]Whose[/b] [i]is[/i] this [b]image and superscription?[/b]
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; [b]and unto God the things that are God's[/b].

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...



Here I am, wholly available
As for me, I will serve the Lord
Here I am, wholly available
As for me, I will serve the Lord

The fields are white unto harvest
But O, the labourers are so few
So Lord, I give myself to help the reaping
To gather precious souls unto You

The time is right in the nation
For works of power and authority
God's looking for a people who are willing
To be counted in His glorious victory

As salt are we ready to savour?
In darkness are we ready to be light?
God's seeking out a very special people
To manifest His truth and His might.



[i]© 1981 Sovereign Lifestyle Music [/i]

 2007/11/22 15:33









 Re: Another Minister Spending Habits Exposed






[url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID1397.asf]Gold Tried in the Fire[/url] - [i]by Carter Conlon[/i]



I downloaded this expecting it to be something about the refinement of my faith through endurance and suffering.

Instead it is a relevant and spiritual expositon and exhortation to know God as He really is and not as He has been fashioned for us by current religious voices and our own minds.



I am now beginning to wonder if the prosperity gospel is a actually a not-so-sublte form of persecution... a variety of 'kill them with kindness'...?


Any thoughts on that?

 2007/11/22 21:42
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Yeah.... I was impressed at how much he believes himself, seeing as he doesn't have a qualification in theology or divinity...



Not trying to get too far off topic, but I am wondering about this.

Respectfully I have to ask. What does a qualification applied [i]from[/i] man have anything to do with anyone's ability to speak truth to the Church?

[u][b]John 7:14-15 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Jesus Teaches at the Feast[/b]

[i]Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"[/i]

I am not for the prosperity message, but one's education level based on school should not be a litmus test on who can and should speak.

The Lord provides all the knowledge that one needs to minister to His flock. To preach otherwise would be, in my opinion, unwise. Maybe I just misunderstood your comment?

In Chirst,

Christiaan


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/11/23 0:45Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Hi Dorcas,

You know, I've listened to Osteen on a number of occasions and I really don't have to much of problem with what I've heard. Yes, we have TBN here and yes, he is on there with allot of the SI 'favorites'. Like I said, with what I've heard, I don't have a problem. It does lack some meat to it, but he is generally a very encouraging guy and tries to help his flock to live at peace with God, at peace with themselves, and at peace with each other.

You see it concerns me when, when we deem good preaching/teaching anything that lays a heavy burden on the flock. The 'whole council of God' is not always come out from among them and be separate. It can lead to Pharisaical attitude, thank you Lord that I am not like those compromising people. I fast twice a week, read my bible and pray every day, street preach on Fridays and care for the widows and orphans on Saturday and serve tea on Sunday.

Look, Christianity is serious stuff, there are people passing to a lost eternity every second, but as the prophet Isaiah says in the 40th Chapter: Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins. Our sins have been forgiven our iniquity is passed. God is not angry with us anymore.

You see Dorcas, the church is His bride, and those that minister to his woman are charged with helping to prepare her for Jesus. I think that if allot of ministers actually understood that the church is his bride they would be allot more careful in what they say. This goes for both sides of the fence. She has problems, and they are plain, but to presume that this mans congregation are all still unregenerate sinners and acts like a whore is total and utter speculation. The fact that he speaks to millions of people, allot of whom, I presume are not even saved does leave himself open to soothing sinners consciences, when all they need to do is repent and get right with God.

Like I said, the guy is encouraging and if he can get his people to be more like Christ by exhorting and encouraging them like a Father (1 Thess 2:11)then Amen. A father doesn't always beat his children, neither does he scold them the whole time. If any man is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has passed and the new has come. I agree with him, live free, free from the bondage of living under the curse of the law, free from the wages of sin. Living under a open heaven where we do have victory in our finances, in our relationships, in our giving, in our sacrificing in whatever area. And what is victory? Living the life of Christ, knowing that there is a Father in heaven who could send down 12 legion of Angels if we asked (Mat 26:53), God smiles on you now as he would his own son. He was basically telling them lift your vision higher, put your thoughts in heaven, live, act, behave like people whom God is now made you to be. If you are thinking that this humanistic, please, please read the whole bible, not just those bits that condemn sin and selfishness, but the bits about what God thinks about his church. Not once am I implying that we are God or have any source of life other that God himself.

We are children of God, and has chosen us since the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his Son. That is high calling, we are nothing without him in us. I am not talking about people who don't God, I am talking about born again believers in Jesus Christ, new creations. This is what is so perturbing about this video. This man was talking to his church, Jesus' bride. He wasn't standing on street corner trying to get converts to Christ and confronting them continually with the failings against Gods standard. If you want to go to a church where you are continually told that you are a good for nothing sinner, then please go by all means. If that makes you feel like you are getting closer to God or living the correct Christian lifestyle, please don't stop. Don't for one minute think that preaching the word doesn't constitute encouraging God's people to live better.

I personally have a huge problem with modern evangelical methods, hence the Walter Chantry bump. We can't get people to live for Christ when they are still dead in their sins. Once a person is saved, however, things change. There is a new life in them, his life, his DNA, his power, his wisdom. This is not an ethereal fantasy, this is God our Father living in us by His Holy Spirit through the living word Jesus Christ. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, tell her, her iniquity is passed. The church as a whole does need to repent for allowing other things to steal her affection from Christ, but to lambaste a man in this way is just propaganda. To presume that this man and his church are still unregenerate sinners is speculative gossip.

It is unfortunate that his books don't confront the unredeemed, which is a blight against him, because as the word says, there is no rest for the wicked. I think that writing the book the way he has, has given false comfort and hope to people who just need Jesus. Yes, he does compromise his belief and in an attempt to bring unity with folk. Yes he does sacrifice, publicly, doctrinal correctness in an attempt to be all inclusive, but from what I've heard its in an attempt to win people to Christ at any cost. It is unfortunate that he would not have been a bit more careful in the things that he has said publicly. But as the word says, when words are many, sin is not far behind.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/11/23 2:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Respectfully I have to ask. What does a qualification applied [i]from[/i] man have anything to do with anyone's ability to speak truth to the Church?

I am not for the prosperity message, but one's education level based on school should not be a litmus test on who can and should speak...

The Lord provides all the knowledge that one needs to minister to His flock. To preach otherwise would be, in my opinion, unwise. Maybe I just misunderstood your comment?

Hi Miccah,

I don't think you misunderstood me but I'm indebted to a comment in the sermon Carter Conlon preached (The Image of God) just before the Revival Conference, for bringing a clearer focus on the matter of [i]calling[/i].

I agree that no-one needs a formal qualification [b]if[/b] one is being taught of God [i]and[/i] one is [u]called[/u] of God, and this is one of the most wonderful things about scripture, and the illumination of it by the Holy Spirit. But, to be able to dispose of false doctrine, one must have an understanding of true doctrine from scripture. That was the thing I didn't attempt to put my finger on in the post you quoted. (Sorry)

I was thinking that if Mr Osteen had gone through those study hoops, he'd be less dangerous... maybe even, he would have had the courage to walk away for the sake of his own soul, understanding that he was being tempted to proclaim a message which goes beyond the Book. I would have hoped he had wondered how heavy a millstone is, and whether he might ever wish to have one round his neck rather than face the wrath of God. Does popular assent = call?

Not to dampen his proclamation of the victory of Christ... but that victory has nothing to do with becoming materially prosperous - either Christ, or us - as is clear from the letter to the Laodiceans in Rev 3.

 2007/11/23 21:37
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Heck I am still waiting here patiently for all those folks that have slammed Pastor Joel to post there Church and Pastor names here, if were going to dig up some dirt or wrong doings lets not discriminate?
And as I said if they refuse or don't post my request they "must" have something to hide, are they are being just a plain old hypocrite. :-)


_________________
Bill

 2007/11/23 22:10Profile









 Re: Another Minister Spending Habits Exposed


ZekeO said

Quote:
to presume that this mans congregation are all still unregenerate sinners and acts like a whore is total and utter speculation.

Hello bro,

Not trying to be tricky... but did my comments make you think this?

Quote:
It is unfortunate that his books don't confront the unredeemed, which is a blight against him, because as the word says, there is no rest for the wicked. I think that writing the book the way he has, has given false comfort and hope to people who just need Jesus. Yes, he does compromise his belief and in an attempt to bring unity with folk. Yes he does sacrifice, publicly, doctrinal correctness in an attempt to be all inclusive, but from what I've heard its in an attempt to win people to Christ at any cost. It is unfortunate that he would not have been a bit more careful in the things that he has said publicly. But as the word says, when words are many, sin is not far behind.

Okay. Let's leave this part of his testimony out completely, and stick with what you have endorsed with regard to victorious Christian living. This is a serious question now, which I have never properly asked myself but do as I write.... When\if I get to heaven, and (hopefully) have a crown to throw down at His feet, will I be able to look the saint beside me in the eye (ever) who was beheaded, or tortured, or lost his only wife and child in the hostile climate of a mission field when he was 24, or gave up the possibility of a lucrative career by answering God's call to serve in slummy parish for 45 years? In other words, [i]does[/i] my heart - [i]your[/i] heart - the heart of His bride - beat for Him [i]alone?[/i] Or is it that we think it does because someone wrote a song about it, which we've sung together [i]undiscerningly?[/i]

This is not personal and (probably ;-) ) you're right to challenge me. I don't usually write against named people. But I am genuinely and deeply vexed about this prosperity gospel now I find people I've come to love in a very short time are being fed it, like it's the answer to a fear of, or a bondage to, 'poverty'. This is the problem. Who needs to be [i]afraid[/i] of poverty? Where is the faith that our Father will provide [i]even then?[/i]

Now this is not the same as bringing snakes into church for people to be proved with. That is not what scripture teaches. But the Bible [i]does[/i] report Jesus speaking many times about God's attitude to faith, to provision, to money, to a right perspective on His heart of love towards us... and [i]never[/i] in all those reports, does material comfort feature as part of His promise to us for this life.

Having said this, I understand there are seasons in life, and while bringing up children one seems to accumulate an amazing amount of 'stuff'. I suppose it's how one values these things that communicates itself when we're not paying attention to what comes out of our mouths. Further, it communicates itself by what we give and keep and whether we do what God asks when He asks.

I noticed an interesting thing in the verse in Luke.... that the 'good measure... etc' is a reflection of our own giving, and, Jesus does [u]not[/u] say we will get [i]more[/i] (actually).

 2007/11/23 22:19





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