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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone.


Katy-Did,



"Only two, from the original group Joshua and Caleb were I guess " My Sheep"."



Compare also Numbers 14:1-4,24 and Isaiah 48:8.




Chris











_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/27 20:04Profile









 Re:

ChrisJD,

God deals with men through Covenants. He sovereignty is through these covenants.

You confuse the meaning of sovereignty, and apply it to God's whimsy to just pick and choose His Elect because He is sovereign to do so. That is a total abuse of the whole understanding of Sovereignty. The Sovereignty of God is through dealing with men through these Covenants.
Some were conditional, and some are not.

If it were His sovereignty as you say, no such Covenants would need be laid, for one thing.

The foundation Paul laid in Romans 11, he tells you not to be *ignorant of this mystery*.... and would not be necessary to explain, or foundation laid.

If you discount this as true, then I would suggest those who do are barking up the wrong tree, and are not part of the root to begin with.

Many false gospels are identified because they have no root, or they believe themselves to be a new and different, totally separated root all their own called the elect, based on a mystery not rooted and grounded in the foundation Paul laid out through out all his epistles..

I would be most careful not to follow this kind of doctrine. Joseph Smith also claimed to have his new and different Gospel, a secret select few, under a new covenant totally severed from the Covenants established from the foundation of the world.

Another interesting point is, Joseph Smith grew up in the NE among the Calvinists and is believed to have gotten many if his ideas from Calvinism.

One thing too they have in common is that big EYE, staring down at them from the ceiling.


Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did


 2007/11/28 9:18









 Re:

ChrisJD,

I would like to add more to the last statement.

When the Puritans came to America and other places in the world, they believed themselves to be God's NEW Chosen People, and America God's NEW Promise Land. (The Light and the Glory, by Peter Marshall). Totally missing the point that our Promise Land is in Christ, not land or dominionism.

They broke off from the root of truth Romans 11, and that God never made any NEW Covenants with Gentiles.

Well, Joseph Smith did that exact thing too, establishing a New Gospel based on his mystery revelations of the *New City on the Hill*....Dominionism.

Many Puritan Calvinists, broke from Calvinism and converted to Mormonism. Each in their own way believes themselves to be God's New Chosen People, with no root or foundation for either. If they ( the Puritans were in fact rooted in the foundational truths of Paul’s teaching, they would have been rooted and grounded In Christ, and the truths. Because they had no root, these ELECT unelected themselves. hummmmmm…… called Apostasy. We see this happening in massive numbers today…defecting that is, to a dominion Theology, trying to mingle truth with lie. As you probably see all ready, many reformed Churches have replaced the cross with the flag.

When Paul tells us in Ephesians 3, to be rooted and grounded and that we would know the length, depth, width and height, how interesting that is to when Abraham surveyed the land......

We don't inherit teh physical land, but teh Spiritual Land, as ephesians is talking about growing up into all the fulness of Jesus Christ.

The doctrine itself is not identical, but many similarities in mentality....the emperor with no cloths if you know what I mean! Mystery Babylon, wearing all the same clothing as the High Priest, Jesus Christ, yet there is one color missing....blue.....which means heavenly.



Hope that helps!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/28 11:50
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again Katy-Did.



Katy, you wrote,


"You confuse the meaning of sovereignty, and apply it to God's whimsy to just pick and choose His Elect because He is sovereign to do so."




I'm not sure if you are referring to something I wrote here? I hope I did not give anyone the impression that I believed whimsy was associated with the will of God.



When I think of the Sovereignty of God, there are some passages of scripture which come to mind.


One, for instance, in Ephesians chapter 1, verse 11 where it says that God


[i]...worketh all things after the counsel of his own will[/i]




Or another where Isaiah asks




"Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [i]being[/i] his counselor hath taught him?"






Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/28 22:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"You confuse the meaning of sovereignty, and apply it to God's whimsy to just pick and choose His Elect because He is sovereign to do so."



Good Morning ChrisJD,

No not you directly, but this is the main word many if not all use as their argument for election, and that man does not have free choice, or can choose, because God's **Sovereignty** will has not only elected some to heaven but elected the rest to hell.

The whole foundation of their argument is God's Sovereignty.

I believe **God's Word** is sovereign, and that God cannot lie, deceive, or use duplicity. If scripture clearly says, Whosoever Will, along with many other scriptures that it is God's will that all should come to repentance( however free choice means not all will) then God's Word is Sovereign.

One makes it sound as though God is snickering behind the scenes winking at the angels saying, Oh, if they only knew it is just a big joke and that I really never wanted them anyway...I just want them to THINK I do......( That's duplicity....dishonest, and to accuse God of such behavior is appalling...yet they continue to do so out of their own ignorance of ALL scripture they have not learned how to rightly divide.

This all was in reference to Logic's original question that God elected some to heaven and the rest to hell. No questions asked....God's sovereignty has made it so.

Well, that's what I call abuse of the use of the words *God's Sovereignty*. And this and this alone, is the weapon of choice in their argument. That somehow the sovereignty of God and man's free choice are in conflict. Comparing apples to oranges. We need to compare scripture to scripture......all of it, not just some of it to come to a reasonable conclusion.

No this was not directed to you personally.

Have a great day in the Lord!


Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did








 2007/11/29 9:22
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Katy,


I think that it is possible for the way we feel about things, especially if the feelings are strong, to cloud our perceptions.


It may be then that it becomes nearly impossible for us to recieve something from others, or to get an accurate and fair sense of thier views.


Our hearts are deceptive.




Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/30 1:17Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

"Our hearts are deceptive."



Would like to add here that the more we see this of ourselves, I think the more we see our need for God to break through, apart from our own doing.


"...and that not of yourselves"




_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/11/30 1:36Profile









 Re:

ChrisJD,

I couldn't agree more. Faith has nothing to do with feelings, and it is dangerous to allow feelings to cloud faith. Faith is taking God at His word, because it is impossible for God to lie in any way shape or form. That in itself leaves personal feelings out of the equation all together.

I believe many Calvinists confuse the sanctification process with our initial faith in Christ. Being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ, being changed from Glory to Glory by the Spirit of the Lord is something only the Lord can do. This is the evidence that one has truly received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to begin with. When we surrender our lives to Him, this work begins with our cooperation by the Holy Spirit that indwells. This is Sanctification.

In Acts 5 I believe, the Gospel was preached to Jews who were told to repent and upon doing so, out of that obedience they would receive the Holy Spirit. Now with no emotions what so ever in the way, taking scripture at it word, repentance comes before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. ALL instances in Acts have clearly made that fact **a fact**, not an emotion of how one feels about the order in which God works.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

Added for content
Acts 17:29-31

29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[u][i]30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.[/i][/u]


You see, it says here God has given assurence to ALL MEN that He raised Jesus from the dead.....it's no secret.

It is because of man's rejection of these truths that God's wrath and judgement will take it's final course. Men are judged all ready because of Adam's sin, and the Gift of receiving life back from the dead through Jesus Christ offered to all who will come to receive will be why someone goes to heaven or hell, not because they were appointed to it without a way of escape.



WOW! and Here is the evidence:

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

The Holy Spirit of Promise.......

 2007/11/30 8:26
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Psalms 14:1-7 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

There is none that can even repent, unless God's intervention is accomplished in those that do believe and repent. Repentance cannot come unless The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and then through God's intervention believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved can occur, then repentance is true and accomplishes what God intends for His Elect. Man without discrimination plants seed and life comes forth. God is not that way, He plants His Seed in whom He has chosen as son's. It is His Seed you know. We must also see what The Seed of God accomplishes, Jesus Christ the first born among many.

No man would choose God, no not one. Praise God, He has chosen some for His family in His House and I know I am one, by the witness that is in me. That is: Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/11/30 15:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Holy Spirit convicts of sin and then through God's intervention believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved can occur, then repentance is true and accomplishes what God intends



Jesus said, My Words are Spirit and they are Life.

I think sometimes we underestimate the POWER of the Word of God, who Hebrews says is Living and Powerful and sharper then a two edge sword.

Yes, if our words are not empowered by the Holy Spirit when we preach the gospel, of coarse no salvation will accompany that conviction.

One must know and accept they are a sinner. Now that we have the Law, the Perfect Holiness of God, and have the Word that sin...now defined through the Law convicts of sin. Now we come to the Savior, the Gospel of Grace who once convicted of sin, can find healing from the penalty of sin.

The Law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Thank you Lord you didn't leave one stone unturned when it comes to man's accountability and have not left us in the dark as to what sin is, the consequences of sin, and the forgiveness of sin, that comes through Jesus Christ alone.

Even Nineveh had the law written in their conscience and repented at the preaching of Jonah. They knew in their inner most being they were sinners and displeased God. No regeneration took place in Nineveh. But you can bet Jonah preached with the power of the Holy Spirit upon him.

Praise you Lord!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/11/30 16:24





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