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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Christians & War?

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Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re: Christians & War?

Jeff,

Thanks for the post. Yes, wars are generally seen as a judgment of God, however, some wars have been used of God to remove tyrants! The American Revolution is a good example of godly men following biblical principles to end tyranny. The Scottish fight for freedom is similar. (The movie Braveheart didn't capture the essence of Wallace's Christianity.) Here is a good resource about Wallace.
[url=http://mantleministries.com/cgi-bin/plugins/MivaEmpresas/miva?plugins/MivaMerchants/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MM&Product_Code=DWW&Category_Code=LBLDVD]Wallace DVD[/url]

The reason many of us believe America to be special to God is the blessing He has bestowed upon this nation. The Hand of Providence is seen in the history of this nation; the Pilgrims, the Puritans, the two Great Awakenings, the biblical government (as establish, not currently practiced), etc.

Two questions however.

Quote:
As Chanin wrote today in another thread, we are full of dead man's bones. If these are the end times, as so many profess, why do we not come to terms with what Scripture teaches us. The economic system, the political system, the church is dead. Period!



What must we come to terms with in regards to what the Scriptures teach?
In light of that response, how then should we live?


_________________
Matthew

 2004/6/3 13:06Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Hi Matthew,



Quote:
The reason many of us believe America to be special to God is the blessing He has bestowed upon this nation. The Hand of Providence is seen in the history of this nation; the Pilgrims, the Puritans, the two Great Awakenings, the biblical government (as establish, not currently practiced), etc.



My point can be illustrated by what God told Ezekiel, "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon caused his army to labor strenuously against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder rubbed raw; yet neither he nor his army received [b]wages[/b] from Tyre, for the labor which they expended on it. Therefore thus says the Lord God; "Surely I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; he shall take away her wealth, carry off her spoil, and remove her pillage; and that will be the [b]wages[/b] for his army." Ezek 29:18-19

Many have looked to the wealth of the US as being a blessing for our faithfulness. Yet if we study Scripture, God raised up the wicked nation of Babylon to destroy the nation of Israel. God also used Babylon to destroy Tyre and Egypt. The wealth of those nations were their wages according to Scripture. No where in Scripture is Babyon a righteous nation. So that is why I question the conventional thoughts that are passed around causually about the history of this country.

The framers of our countries constitution where heavely influenced by the Unitarian Universalist church movement that came out of Poland. Words like Providence were used to describe the will of God for man's pursuits.

I believe that God has chosen only Israel as a nation. I am not saying that the Israel we see today is being faithful to God, but there will come a time when that nation will again be grafted in to the Holy trunck.

So what is the truth? Was the war with Britian God's will or man's will. Were conditions of taxation without representation legitimate or just cause for rebeling against authority? Someday you and I will know the whole story.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/3 15:44Profile
ravin
Member



Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

Blessed be the lord our god witch teach's my hands to war and my fingers to fight.
"Just War" "Holy WAR" any war has to be the last answer to a bad problem. you only have to be in one to know that war isn't always the answer.
iraq what about cuba then there was rowanda The u.S.A. just stood by and watched as people were being kill.(200,000) wouldn't that be a just war well rowanda didn't have anything that we the u.S needed i pray for this country(u.S.A.) it has 800 broken treatys with the native american's and yes we a killing the unborn for the god of pleasure. god will have to ask forgivness of sodom and gomorrah if this country keeps the same sex marriage laws as they are . Yes it's time to pray for this nation

 2004/6/3 18:29Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

Jeff,

You wrote:

Quote:
The Iraq war is just another curse, just like 911. The USA is no different. Are we living under our High Priest? According to Scripture, Israel is the only nation who has a special place in God's plan. All other kingdoms, as far as I understand the book of Daniel and Revelation are against God. Why do we struggle so hard to want to believe our nation is any different. Look to the fruit. We have killed more children in the last 30 years than all the combatants of all the wars we have participated in. Our jails exceed all industrial nations in the percentage of population that is encarcerated. Our educational system is at the bottom of the list of industrialised nations. As Chanin wrote today in another thread, we are full of dead man's bones. If these are the end times, as so many profess, why do we not come to terms with what Scripture teaches us. The economic system, the political system, the church is dead. Period!



I'm still wondering, what do you propose Christians do if the "Church is dead. Period!"? Your post seems to be lacking hope. That is why I ask.

God bless,
Matthew

PS Here is a resource to check out. You will find our Founding Fathers were more influenced by Augustine, Calvin and Knox than the unitarian heresy. (Yes some were not saved, like Franklin and Jefferson.)
[url=http://www.visionforum.com/booksandtapes/productinfo.asp?number=64200&variation=&aitem=&mitem=&ref=&refpn=]Christian Controversies[/url]


_________________
Matthew

 2004/6/4 11:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Matthew,

You hear my heart. Sorry for the pessimism. If these are the last days, I look around me and see: "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come; for men will be lovers of money, boasters, proud, blaphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [b]having a form of godliness but denying its power.[/b]" 2 Timothy 3:1-5

I have visited 8 churches in 12 weeks, and this is what I have experienced. A brother on this site has given me a church to check out but that is over 80 miles away.

I have heard on one of the compilations, that John Wesley had 10 rules for the church he founded. The primary rule was that the congregation was to focus on spreading the Gospel, and all other things were secondary. I heard on another compilation that in 1933, Oswald J. Sanders wrote in a book that 7000 churches had been surveyed that year and had had no converts. He continues by exterpolating that 256000 sermons had been preached. He asked the reader to meditate on the amount of effort, money, and other resources that it took to deliver these 256000 sermons. For what do we labor for?

I see alot of programs, and I was part of it all. There's has to be more! I have no answers for you or anyone else concerning is it right to participate in war. Is it right to be involved with politics? I believe God will show each one of us His desire for us. The question is are we too occupied with the cares of this world to hear?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/4 18:15Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re:

I understand, it gets frustrating seeing all of the evil in the world and then in the church.

My family was in the same boat not too long ago. In His grace, God allowed us to leave. It was hard. We searched...

Providincially, at a family camp last July, the pastor told us of his friend in Az. We have been at that chruch almost a year. About half a dozen other families have joined us now (all leaving the same other church). It has been a beautiful time of healing and growth. And yes, the scars from before are still there. Praise the Lord, He is the Great Physician.

All of this is to say, that there are those out there seeking the Lord. Be encouraged. About 3 years ago, the Lord came to our (new) pastor and elders and told them they were "too comfortable" and that they should be out spreading the Good News in the world. They obeyed! This pastor preaches the Word! It is intense!

Secondly, it is also an invitation. I don't know if your work and/or family situation would allow you to move, but I invite anyone hurting and seeking the Lord to attent this church. (Even if you just came for a vist.) Not only has God raised up this church, but we also have a wonderful home Bible study and a men's prayer meeting. God is so good!

I could go on and on, but I need to get going to my son's Little League game (and then to Bible study - the book of Acts).

Pray about it, please.

God bless,
Matthew


_________________
Matthew

 2004/6/4 19:17Profile
ravin
Member



Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re:

Give to God what is god's. Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. also be of good cheer I have over come the world. He said before pilate" my kingdom is not of this world else my servants would fight". Luke 24:45 then opened he their understanding,that they might understand the scriptures.

 2004/6/4 19:17Profile
Matthew2323
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 235
Colorado

 Re: Christians & war?

Ravin,

You need to continue quoting the remaining portion of the text. ". . . My servants would be fighting so that [b]I would not be handed over to the Jews[/b]; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (Emphasis added)

God commanded Adam to rule over the earth and subdue it. In context, God was referring to nature. In the New Testament we see a corollary. It is the Great Commission, to make disciples of all the earth. This commandment is a continuation of the mandate to take dominion.

It is often said that, culture is religion externalized. This is to say, culture reflects the religion of a society. If we are to make disciples of all nations, then all cultures must change to conform to Christian teachings (2 Corinthians 10:5). When cultures that formerly supported violence, murder, cannibalism, torture, nudity, profanity, etc. become converted, these wicked behaviors are to be eradicated. This is another form of dominion.

Christians are to have dominion in all spheres of life: education, morality, the arts, sports, and yes, even politics. Unfortunately, in a sin-stained world, war is an inevitable evil. I'm not saying it is favorable or desirable. I wish to stress that at times it cannot be avoided!

All activity in the world has a spiritual element to it. As Paul states in Ephesians 6 that the battle is not against flesh and blood. . . These spiritual events have a direct physical corollary. Consider Romans 12 verse 1:

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies ([i]physical[/i]) a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your [b]spiritual[/b] service of worship. (Emphasis mine)

You cannot separate the physical from the spiritual.

In a world of sin where demon possessed tyrants exist; war is an ugly part of that reality. If the doctrine of dominion is true, and it is, we Christians have no other recourse than to take the biblical stance that war can be justified and participated in by believers.


_________________
Matthew

 2004/6/7 16:47Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Yes, wars are generally seen as a judgment of God, however, some wars have been used of God to remove tyrants! The American Revolution is a good example of godly men following biblical principles to end tyranny.



I'm sorry, but I do not believe the American Revolution was a just war. I don't believe the people of a nation have the right to ever rebell against the government except in doing actions that are simply not biblical. I'm no history expert, but it seems the American revolution was fought mostly over the issues of what was deemed as "unfair" taxation. It hardly seems like a godly war on the side of the colonists.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2004/6/7 17:37Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

KingJimmy, that's an interesting comment.


_________________
Jina

 2004/6/7 18:52Profile





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