| Poster | Thread | Miccah
Member
Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin
| | Re: | | I want to thank everyone posting on this topic. I know that this topic was started with intentions to destroy the Lord, but the opposite affect is taking place.
Through the back and forths here, my understanding of the trinity has increased more and more. I have always believed the truth, but reading it from other believers perspectives is truly a blessing. Keep contending for our Lord.
For the saints.
[u][b]2 Timothy 4:6-8[/b][/u]
[b]Pauls Valedictory[/b]
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Christiaan
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Christiaan
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|  2007/11/5 11:19 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Nile's:
In my opinion, this is the weakest trinitarian argument. I myself used it in the past, but only out of ignorance.
In Psalm 45 the King is called Elohim.
In Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 Moses is called Elohim.
In 1 Sam. 5:7, Jud. 11:24, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:33, an individual false god is called Elohim. (indiviudal - not multiple.)
Elohyim can be a generic term for God or [i]gods[/i]. What you cannot deny are the many passages I related from the Old Testament that identify Jesus Christ as YHWH.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 11:25 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Robert, what is this but an appeal to authority and to the opinion of the mass?
If I had converted from Islam to Christianity in two weeks would you cry just the same?
As I said before, a house of cards falls easily, no matter how pretty it may look, how tall it is, or how many people like it.
The deity of Jesus Christ is an anvil that hath worn out many of hammers. If a Muslim converted to Jesus Christ based upon [i]information[/i] and argument alone in the span of two weeks- I had questioned whether Islam was a sincerely held belief and would also expect he/she may be a Buddhist [i]next[/i] week.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 11:29 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | John the Baptist announced who was coming; He understood that the way was not being prepared for a mere man.
(Isaiah 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the [u]LORD[/u], make straight in the desert a highway for our [u]God[/u].
Ananias and Sapphira when they lied to the Holy Spirit did not lie to men- they lied to God. We are leaving out a whole section of essential doctrine that Nile and Wildbranch deny; the Deity of the Holy Spirit.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 11:38 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
When Yeshua lived his life, he was the perfect image or likeness or visible form of our God, who is invisible. He showed "God's image" perfectly.
This does not explain what would be clearly blasphemy if it were not in fact true; that Christ thought it not robbery to be equal with God. EQUAL with God? Clearly it would be blasphemy!
Moreover, the passage makes not sense for him to say that the Christ-like nature of God is nothing to be 'grasped'. If that were true, then the whole purpose of God's restoration of the image of God in man- should not for us either be a thing to be grasped. If that is true Jesus did not believe that having the nature of God is important and we need not concern ourselves with being partakers of the Divine Nature.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 11:44 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Sharon/wild branch - you are definitely not a Greek scholar. What you did to Philippians 2:6 is the most foolish exegesis I've seen done to a verse in my life. Actually it was NOT an exegesis of the verse and that is what is wrong with your entire teaching.
I've yet to meet a unitarian that can completely exegete a verse properly and they shy away everytime from Cross-References back to the O.T..
I would have gone further with this with the Greek but than I read what you've done to Romans chpt One.
Do you have any idea what blasphemy you've now plastered onto this site?
Never in all of my days, have I EVER seen anyone use Rom. 1 to speak of Christ Jesus.
I went sheet cold reading that. Fear for you and just the audacity of it all.
I'm glad the men are back from the Conference to deal with you - because at this point - after 'that' post - I give you over to Tit 3:10, 11 A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
AND
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, [b]blasphemy[/b], filthy communication out of your mouth.
Romans 1 is God giving them over to homosexuality, Etc, and you're saying that if we worship Jesus as Messiah-GOD in the flesh - HE will turn us over to those reprobate minded sins.
Lord help you. I will pray that you are not permitted to blaspheme in our presence again but also will pray for God's mercy to give you many more chances before HE RETURNS or you die.
I write with tears of sorrow for you but anger in what you've done to His Word. |
| | 2007/11/5 12:06 | | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi RobertW... Quote:
John the Baptist announced who was coming; He understood that the way was not being prepared for a mere man.
(Isaiah 40:3) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Ananias and Sapphira when they lied to the Holy Spirit did not lie to men- they lied to God. We are leaving out a whole section of essential doctrine that Nile and Wildbranch deny; the Deity of the Holy Spirit.
Very good points!
:-)
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Christopher
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| | 2007/11/5 12:21 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Compton:
Quote:
Really Nile...a week of reading was all it took to become convinced to deny a core tenet of your faith?
Yes really! That's all it took! Lies are easy to disprove! Do not be amazed at this. You would not marvel if I saw the error of Mormonism is a week.
Quote:
Can you ever trust yourself again for being so unstable?
Unstable? How so? I have never studied something more fervently, anxiously, and prayerfully before in my life.
Quote:
Young men and women of the faith...consider that many older saints have already been through the very same issues you are facing.
...I don't consider those saints true servants of Yahweh. Appeal to authority won't cut it. There are plenty of Muslims who have studied there faith for years and have struggled through things, but I don't trust or go by them.
Quote:
Please Nile, consider taking a healthy rest from this entire controversy...resist cementing yourself so hastily into a position on an issue that will impact your faith and your character; don't overcook the roast on the outside before it's properly cooked on the inside.
I appreciate the concern and advice...but there is no controversy for me.
I come here to express what I have learned and be corrected if wrong. [u]Being corrected does not mean being told, "You're wrong. Go pray." It means showing me why my arguments, why my worldview fails to match up with the Bible and with reality.[/u] So far, I have not been shown this. Simply pointing to a Bible verse does nothing. No one seems to realize that I have investigated these verses. It is extremely unlikely I'm going to be blindsided by a passage I've never seen before (not that I know the whole Bible, but I have know the arguments for the trinity).
What we need is [b]reasonable discussion[/b]. I believe X because of Y. Saying, "X is wrong" does nothing. What would help is to say, "I understand that you believe X because of Y. But have you considered that Z disproves Y?" "Yes I have, and Z fails because of A." "Ah, but A is wrong because of B." Etc. Just a rudimentary example.
So, let me put forth something that can be destructo tested.
I believe Jesus being called Elohim [u]does not[/u] prove that He is God Almighty, [b][u]because[/b][/u] Elohim means more than "God Almighty" and other people besides Jesus are called Elohim.
Trinitarians should [b][u]not[/u][/b] use this as an argument for the deity of Jesus.
I invite everyone to consider this.
Nile
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/11/5 12:34 | Profile | hulsey
Moderator
Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri
| | Re: | | Nile,
You still have avoided all of the references to Jesus being YHWH, and you have never even attempted to answer John's testimony of Christ in the opening of his gospel.
The belief in the trinity is logical and reasonable not because of a few references but because it is present through out the whole Bible. Genesis 19 has YHWH on earth calling down fire from YHWH in heaven. Isaiah calls YHWH the first and the last, the creator who will share his glory with no other. Isaiah further states that at the name of YHWH every knee shall bow...ALL CLEARLY attributed to Jesus in the New Testament.
Two weeks isn't enough time simply because the material is SO VAST.
If I wanted to say that Jesus was God come to earth and clothed with humanity I couldn't do a better job than the first chapter of John. Have any of your [i]TEACHERS[/i] taught you that chapter yet?
Matt I'm not trying to win an argument with you. This is life and death.
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Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2007/11/5 12:49 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: reply to RobertW II question... | |
RobertW II---------------------quote": "We are leaving out a whole section of essential doctrine that Nile and Wildbranch deny; the Deity of the Holy Spirit."
Speaking for myself, how can one deny the deity of the Holy Spirit of God? The very words "Spirit of God" define the phrase.
Spirit is the English translation of the Hebrew ruach (Strong's #7304), in the Old Testament and the Greek pneuma (Strong's #5141) in the NT.
The word "holy" is translated from the Hebrew word kodesh, and in the Greek text, hagios, which literally means "set-apart." Strongest Strong's Dictionary #6944: kodesh - holy or sacred thing, holy or sacred place, sanctuary; holiness, set-apart as dedicated to God.
Every mention of God's spirit (some 400 times) in our English Bible is translated in the OT from the Hebrew word 'ruach' and in the NT from the Greek word 'pneuma', these being the only two words God inspired the writers of Scripture to us. Both words were part of everyday Hebrew or Greek speech, having the literal meaning, breath or wind.
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| | 2007/11/5 13:00 | Profile |
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