Well, like most of these groups, they have to go consult with whomever/whatever, before they can answer.

The problem being - they never can get caught up with all of us, because by time they get back, we're two pages away.

Nile, please be sure to start on page 4 if you come back and read what Tears_of_joy's wrote to you.

But if everyone who believes in the Deity of our Savior all post - there would be more pages than you two could ever answer.


Yes, this is sad.


Edit. For wildbranch - "Our Blessed Hope" - [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=7346&forum=36&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0]Our Savior - "the first and the last."[/url]

[u][b]2 Peter 2:1-3 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Destructive Doctrines[/b]

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

[u][b]Jude 1:3-5 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

[b]Contend for the Faith[/b]

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]Old and New Apostates[/b]

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Christiaan

_________________
Christiaan

He Reigns----------------quote: "Edit. For wildbranch - "Our Blessed Hope" - Our Savior - "the first and the last."

Titus 2:13 "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory (Footnote: 1) of the great God and our Saviour Yeshua the Messiah"
Footnote: (1) Or of our great God and Saviour )

Our "Blessed Hope" is therefore the [b]return of Yeshua the Messiah[/b] to earth, to establish the Kingdom of His Father.


The Apostle Paul was very clear when speaking of the Father and the Son:

2 Corinthians 1:3. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

and Peter: 1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Acts 5:30. "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."

"Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus, as He promised." Acts 13:23
Acts 13: 38-37: " But [b]God raised him[/b] from the dead: And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath [b]raised up Jesus again[/b]; as it is also written in the second psalm, [u]Thou art my Son, [b]this day[/b] have I begotten thee[/u]. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: [b]But he, whom God raised[/b] again, saw no corruption. "

Acts 13:38: "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins"

Wildbranch,

When do you believe that the "idea" of Christ being divine was 1st posited?

Miccah------------quote: "ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here Peter already sees the beginnings of two deceptive teachings; that of abusing the grace of God by licentious, lawless behaviour, contrary to, and rejecting the commandments of God, and those who would later deny the Lord God (YHWH) and the Lord Jesus Christ (Yeshua the Anointed One).

We see later how those warnings of Peter were ignored, and how these two heresies took a hold of the church as more and more former pagan gentiles entered in. The next few centuries of the 'church' are a bloody, sordid tale of power hungry individuals, rife with all manner of excesses and vile behaviour. Constantine eventually brought some order to the mess by instating the first of many Church Councils, where, in this [i]milieu[/i], all doctrines were formulated and sworn in as "dogma"......with warnings that anyone not adhering to them would be 'anathema'....which could mean exile, persecution or loss of life. :cry:

Wildbranch...would you be kind enough to answer my query?

;-)

[b]Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last

Isa 41:4 I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 48:12 I am the first, I also am the last.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.



Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


We know that this is Jesus in these verses above.



His appearing is also in this next verse -


Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and [u]the glorious 'appearing' of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ[/u]


The following discusses the "one article" within this verse.


A.T. Robertson - of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai so¯te¯ros Ie¯sou Christou). This is the necessary meaning of the one article with theou and so¯te¯ros just as in 2Pe_1:1, 2Pe_1:11.

Geneva notes: (e) Christ is here most plainly called that mighty God, and his appearance and coming is called by the figure of speech metonymy, our hope.

Jamieson, Faussett & Brown - the great God and our Saviour Jesus --[u]There is but one Greek article to "God" and "Saviour," which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being.[/u][/b] "Of Him who is at once the great God and our Saviour." Also (2) "appearing" (epiphaneia) is never by Paul predicated of God the Father (Joh_1:18; 1Ti_6:16), or even of "His glory" (as ALFORD explains it): it is invariably applied to CHRIST'S coming, to which (at His first advent, compare 2Ti_1:10) the kindred verb "appeared" (epephanee), Tit_2:11, refers (1Ti_6:14; 2Ti_4:1, 2Ti_4:8). Also (3) in the context (Tit_2:14) there is no reference to the Father, but to Christ alone; and here there is no occasion for reference to the Father in the exigencies of the context. Also (4) the expression "great God," as applied to Christ, is in accordance with the context, which refers to the glory of His appearing; just as "the true God" is predicated of Christ, 1Jo_5:20. The phrase occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, but often in the Old Testament. Deu_7:21; Deu_10:17, predicated of Jehovah, who, as their manifested Lord, led the Israelites through the wilderness, doubtless the Second Person in the Trinity. Believers now look for the manifestation of His glory, inasmuch as they shall share in it. Even the Socinian explanation, making "the great God" to be the Father, "our Saviour," the Son, places God and Christ on an equal relation to "the glory" of the future appearing: a fact incompatible with the notion that Christ is not divine; indeed it would be blasphemy so to couple any mere created being with God.

Next - "God our Savior" and "Jesus Christ our Savior"...

Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love [u]of God our Savior toward man appeared[/u],
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through [u]Jesus Christ our Savior[/u]

[b]Robertson's Word Studies - Of God our Saviour[/b] (theou so¯te¯ros he¯mo¯n). Genitive case with epitage¯n. In the lxx so¯te¯r (old word from so¯zo¯ for agent in saving, applied to deities, princes, kings, etc.) occurs 20 times, all but two to God. In the N.T. the designation of God as Saviour is peculiar to Luk_1:47; Jud_1:25; 1Ti_1:3; 1Ti_2:3; 1Ti_4:10; Tit_1:3; Tit_2:10; Tit_3:4. In the other Epistles Paul uses it of Christ (Phi_3:20; Eph_5:23) as in 2Ti_1:10. In 2Pe_1:1 we have “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” as in Tit_2:13.


Next question would be - Who is this and who is speaking in the last three verses?


Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
______________________________________________

I'm sorry Sharon that you will use the verses you want and ignore [u]so[/u] many others and the language & it's grammar.

The Word of God doesn't work that way. All passages must be considered and one verse doesn't cancel out another but must be cross-referenced also.

But we've already said that on the other thread to you and Nile.
As long as you believe that one verse cancels out another - there's no discussion left.

Take care.

Yes, thank you Scribe.

Scribe asked me--------------quote: "Wildbranch, When do you believe that the "idea" of Christ being divine was 1st posited?

Here follows my reply.
WARNING: The positions held by me are not those of the "SermonIndex" community. I entered into the discussion in support of one of the regular posters, "Nile", who was defending (from what I can tell), a similar position to mine. I post this in answer to a question: (quotes from books are copy/pasted).


The apostle Paul warned the Greek Colossian city, "Beware lest any man cheat you through philosophy and vain deceit. . .(Colossians 2:8)"

What kind of philosophy was Paul warning about? Since Paul was addressing a Greek city, he must have been warning about the entrance of Greek Philosophical Thought. The Platonic fathers, also known as Greek Apologists were the first to introduce trinitarian thought into Christianity.

Church historian Adolf Harnack states that the Church Fathers which developed the Nicene Creed were Platonists who appealed to Plato in support of the trinity: Volume 4. Page 88: "Science concluded on alliance with the Nicene Creed; that was a condition of the triumph of orthodoxy. . . These men took their stand on the general theory of the universe which was accepted by the science of the time; they were Platonists, and they once more naively appealed to Plato in support even of their doctrine of the trinity."

Edward Gibbons's History of Christianity notes: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism". The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."

H. P. Blavatsky in Isis Unveiled (pages 45,46), reveals that the Trinity Dogma originated from Babylon:
"We find it northeast of the Indus; and tracing it to Asia Minor and Europe, recognize it among every people who had anything like an established religion. It was taught in the oldest Chaldaean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldaean Sun-god, Mithra, was called 'Triple,' and the trinitarian idea of the Chaldaeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who themselves belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity. According to Rawlinson, the Chaldaeans are a tribe of the Akkadians, who lived in Babylonia from the earliest of times."

In Revelation 17:1-5, the Bible gives ample warning to beware of the Apostasy which would emanate from Babylon:
". . . I will show you the judgment of the great whore that sits upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with fold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
The idea of a Trinity of three personal gods in one clearly [b]originated in ancient Babylon[/b]. It was from ancient Babylon that all Pagan Religions had their original source. When God dispersed the ancients at the tower of Babel, they settled throughout the world with their concept of a metaphysical trinity firmly entrenched. It was from this source that we have been infiltrated. Babylon is the Mother of all false religion.

Thank you.

PS. There is no instance in the NT where we are told to believe on a 'trinity' for salvation. In contrast, Paul clearly says in 1Tim 2:5: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time."

Yeshua our High Priest is forever mediating between His God and our God (YHWH) on our behalf, and it is by his perfect and obedient life of overcoming and vanquishing sin, that we can stand in his glorious merits and achievements and attain eternal life, through repentence and regeneration, thereafter following in the manner in which he walked. (obedient).

HalleluYah! The kingdom of this world is soon to become the kingdom of our Lord (YHWH) and His Christ (Anointed one)!!!

Adolf Harnack is not a very good source to quote, seeing as how he subscribed to German Rationalism and Higher Critical Theory.

Scribe said------------ "Adolf Harnack is not a very good source to quote, seeing as how he subscribed to German Rationalism and Higher Critical Theory."

Yes, I can understand how one would feel led to reject his observations of history, based on his own personal beliefs and life. His conclusions are the same as other historians though.

I have the same feeling about those who have formulated the dogma of the church and insisted that all believe such. Their lives and the resulting testimony of their institution leave one aghast at such a confusing mixture of truth and lie, a true 'babel'.

One has to question why they decided to outlaw the keeping of the Sabbath. From the website catholic.com we read: "Augustine: "Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian."

The Council of Laodicea was formulated in 364 A.D. to address such issues. Canon XXIX decrees: CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day (Sunday); and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. The Sabbath was thus changed to Sunday. (He shall seek to change the times and the seasons, says the book of Daniel).

Later this church felt it necessary to initiate Crusades, Inquisitions, Pogroms, etc. Even Luther in his final frustration and fury with the Jews published such works of hatred, that the Germans did not find it difficult to turn a blind eye to the holocaust.

The first of all commandments is "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is One." Those nine words have been cried out by Jews for centuries as they were about to be slaughtered by Christian inquisitors in Spain, crusaders in the Holy Land, religious fanatic neighbors in Poland, Cossacks in Russia and concentration camp Nazi guards all over the rest of Europe during the Holocaust.

The origins of our institutional church system stem from the most bloody doctrinal battles imaginable about 1700 years ago in the city of Nicea in present Turkey. In those early days, lofty disputes were settled by anathematizing, excommunicating, banishment, swords, clubs, knives, the flaying alive of fellow humans and burning at the stake .

Then there was John Calvin who had Michael Servatus burned at the stake for opposing the church on the trinity issue.

Those who denied the trinity were persecuted throughout Europe, and between 1548 and 1612 we find few anti-Trinitarians, most of whom were either executed or forced to recant. Those burned included George van Parris. (1551), Flemish surgeon; Patrick Pakingham (1555), fellmonger; Matthew Hamont (1579), ploughwright; John Lewes (1583); Peter Cole (1587), tanner; Francis Kett (1589), physician and author; Bartholomew Legate (1612), cloth-dealer, last of the Smithfield victims; and the twice-burned fanatic Edward Wightman (1612). In all these cases the anti-Trinitarian sentiments seem to have come from Holland; the last two executions followed the dedication to James I of the Latin version of the Racovian Catechism (1609). (Wikipedia)

The Toleration Act was amended (1779) by substituting belief in Scripture for belief in the Anglican (doctrinal) articles. In 1813 the penal acts against deniers of the Trinity were repealed. (thankfully)