| Poster | Thread | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Nile - try answering ALL the others who posted Scriptures to you.
First, I did that in the other thread and everyone ignored my arguments.
Second, my original question on this thread was answered. This was not intended to be a generic trinity thread, so I feel no need to talk about it. If you want to discuss something else, make a new thread and I might post.
Quote:
We could also carry the other posts that were posted from the other thread unto this one.
Since wildbranch is a female - it should be your place to answer all the ones on your other thread.
I was asked not to post anymore on the other thread. I stated clearly that anyone who wanted to talk with me can do so in private.
No one has opted to do so.
Sincerely,
Nile
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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|  2007/11/3 15:49 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: 1Tim3:16 | | 1Tim 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh"...
Guys, I would caution you against using this text in support of your argument. It is well documented and attested to, even among Trinitarian scholars, that this text has been
redacted by the Roman Church *cough* '[i]editorial processing[/i]'.
The facts also reveal that this version of the text was completely unknown to the early Christians.
Here follows a list of the manuscripts and what they [b]do[/b] say.
Manuscript Common Name Date Text Comments
B Codex Vaticanus ca. 300 Does not contain 1 Timothy Alexandrian.
Aleph Codex Sinaiticus ca. 350 [b]who[/b] was manifest in flesh Alexandrian.
Al Codex Alexandrinus ca. 450 [b]who[/b] was manifest in flesh Scrivener attests to theos.
C Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus ca. 450 [b]who[/b] was manifest in flesh
D Codex Claromontanus ca. 550 [b]which[/b] was manifest in flesh
Peshitta
Coptic
Ethiopic
Sahidic [b]which[/b] was manifest in flesh
Gothic [b]which[/b] was manifest in flesh
Thus we see that none of the extant early manuscripts contain the word "God" in this verse....
A correct reading is: [b]Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: Who (which/or He) was manifested in the flesh, vindicated/justified by in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory[/b]. (referring to Yeshua the Messiah)
Thanks
:-) |
| | 2007/11/3 17:51 | Profile | Logic
Member
Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
wildbranch wrote:
1Tim 3:16 "God was manifested in the flesh"...
...A correct reading is: [b]Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: Who (which/or He) was manifested in the flesh, vindicated/justified by in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory[/b]. (referring to Yeshua the Messiah)
If you put it in context with the verse before it, one will find out who the "who" and/or "which " is. |
| | 2007/11/3 18:07 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
The facts also reveal that this version of the text was completely unknown to the early Christians.
This is sheer speculation. Many of us here on Sermonindex reject this assertion outright. I would recommend a review of the thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3602&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Which Version?[/url]
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/3 18:16 | Profile | 1another
Member
Joined: 2007/10/11
Posts: 15
| | Re: | | Hey
This is just another thread promoting blasphemy as was the other thread you started Nile. I will pray for both you Nile and Wild branch to repent. In denying Jesus is Lord you both are in sin, pure and simple. I used to find these forums a place to come to read posts from other brothers and sisters that would point me toward Jesus but sadly it would seem that more and more are like these kinds of threads and only seek to tear down our Lord, and Savior!
Saved by Jesus Christ our Lord!
Bethany |
| | 2007/11/3 18:19 | Profile | BeYeDoers
Member
Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN
| | Re: | | Nile, which arguments of yours have not been answered? Best I can tell, all of yours have been answered, but you then throw in another argument. It is you who is ignoring us, not the other way around.
Wildbranch, I think you need to do a little more studying of the manuscripts and "scholars". If this verse was a "Roman Church editorial", why is it not in the vulgate? Furthermore, the Byzantine manuscripts support "Theos" in this verse, and only a few Alexandrian texts are questionable. Wescott and Hort "decided" that the text said "Hos" and and not "Theos", but the two are extremely similar looking and the scholars that look at all the texts and not just the few Alexandrian ones you mentioned believe the original said "Theos" and that can even be argued using the texts you posted.
Furthermore...let's play your game (well, this most definitely NOT a game) for a minute and say "who was manifest in the flesh." What does that mean? Christ was born and existed? Paul could not possibly have meant that. EVERYONE knew that Christ existed...the question is, do you believe He was MANIFEST? Which you and Nile clearly do not.
_________________
Denver McDaniel
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| | 2007/11/3 18:24 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Amen Logic.
What gets me with these Italian guys suddenly calling God YHWH and Yeshua, is if they knew anything about Judaism, they would know that Messiah had to be God and that is why the Pharisees wanted HIM dead - because He claimed to be Messiah - equal to God by calling Himself the son of David or Son of God. The "Jews" knew Messiah would be GOD. They had all the prophecies to go by. They knew exactly what Jesus was saying, when He said, before Abraham was, I AM.
Not that it's just the "Suddenly Messianic" that have done this, because few true Messianics have taken away from His Deity.
But, we always need to have one more, latest, greatest, special groups out there to cause one more division.
Ma Ma Mia - Oy Vey!
Oh well. |
| | 2007/11/3 18:25 | | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
What gets me with these Italian guys suddenly calling God YHWH and Yeshua, is if they knew anything about Judaism, they would know that Messiah had to be God and that is why the Pharisees wanted HIM dead - because He claimed to be Messiah - equal to God by calling Himself the son of David or Son of God.
There is always a temptation when trying to reach the Jews of taking on too many ideas that they hold dear. One has to know that Rabbinic Judaism is AntiChrist from the word go. It is a religion specifically designed to lock Christ out of their religion. I wish to recommend looking at these articles that deal with the subject:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=13627]Atheism Among The Jews[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1957]Rabbi Akiba's False Messiah[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1958]Talmudic Revisionism And The Struggle For Authority[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1954]The Birkat Ha Minim[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1962]The Silencing of The Prophetic[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1963]Am- Ha - Eretz[/url]
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/3 18:39 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi Robert. Thank you for your post and all others.
I was thinking of ancient Judaism - the B.C. crowd.
And of this verse ...
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Robertson's on this last part...
[b]Making himself equal with God[/b] "(ison heauton poiōn tōi theōi). Isos is an old common adjective (in papyri also) and means equal. In Phi_2:6 Paul calls the Pre-incarnate Christ isa theōi, equal to God (plural isa, attributes of God). Bernard thinks that Jesus would not claim to be isos theōi because in Joh_14:28 he says: The Father is greater than I. And yet he says in Joh_14:7 that the one who sees him sees in him the Father. Certainly the Jews understood Jesus to claim equality with the Father in nature and privilege and power as also in Joh_10:33; Joh_19:7. Besides, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus on this point, it was open and easy for him to deny it and to clear up the misapprehension. This is precisely what he does not do. On the contrary Jesus gives a powerful apologetic in defense of his claim to equality with the Father (verses 19-47)." |
| | 2007/11/3 18:56 | | Tears_of_joy
Member
Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554
| | Re: | | Dear Matt (Nile), please hear what is on my heart to share with you.
I am afraid and almost tremble while I am writing you, because I had similar experience with a man who is very dear to my heart, and I know how painful it is.
Presently I am more afraid about your attitude toward the subject, than the very subject, though this is subject is the most crucial one of our faith, it is a matter of [u]life and death[/u], nothing more, nothing less.
I tremble over these words that you shared:
Quote:
[b]Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced.[/b] I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.
So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.
Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.
You have been here (on SI) many months, you have participate in the discussions, you have met some godly men who have walked with the Lord many years. And for about few weeks, reading articles from unknown men with unknown fruits, you decided to deny the Lord Jesus Christ as God.
Now, what I am most afraid is not your doubts, because the Lord is faithful to reveal the truth to all His children, but from the attitude that you came at once, and declared "..therefore, Jesus is not God." instead, to come and ask...
"Brethren, I read this and this, there are doubts in my heart, could you help me what it means, could you bear with me in these times of doubts, what the Lord is saying to your heart"
I am sure that many, literally many would take time and share with you and pray with you, and search together. And of course, if you have at least a little trust in the brothers and sisters on this virtual community. It is not by accident that the Lord has brought you here, internet has 1000's forums.
And instead of that, you came with very wrong position, trying to demolish, the very core of the Christian faith and that is the person of Jesus Christ. Many, many have stumbled on that, because the word says that Jesus Christ is the corner stone on which many will stumble.
Nothing is more important than this - knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and God in your life, worthy of every praise and honor and worship and might.
Dear Mat, I suppose that there is some bitterness in your heart. This might be so dangerous. It can cost you so much that you cannot imagine now. Read all the answers and replies with a humble and searching heart. You must be honest first with yourself, this is a starting point. And with all of us. You don't have anything to hide. We are not here to compete who knows more from the Bible and who have bigger brain. You and we all are just poor fellows, who need the grace of God every moment, who need every moment to be humbled under the mighty hand of God, so one day in His time, He will exalt those have humbled.
Mat, every saint have moments of confusion, doubts and struggling times. That's why we are part of His body. We cannot go on without each other. I mean firstly, our local fellowship of believers. The Lord has made an order, how His organism should function,
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For [b]the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,[/b] and of the [b]knowledge of the Son of God,[/b] unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 [u]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [/u]
Eph 4:15 [b]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [/b]
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Dear Matt, I don't know do you have as a believer, local fellowship with teacher and pastor, and someone who is "watching for your soul," (Heb. 13:17) or you are are spiritual orphan, as many brothers and sisters around the world, which was by no means God's will for His children.
His will was to be a body, family, with responsibilities to one another. We have need one another, the Lord has made us so.
Heb 3:13 [b]But exhort one another daily,[/b] while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Daily.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: [b]and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[/b]
I am sure that many could and will bear with you here, but you need an humble heart (the most important) and teachable character, you are too young, and this is too important (the most important), there are years ahead that Lord Jesus can show His power through you.
Read carefully all responds to the other brothers and sisters, ask their question, if you don't know the answers, that's not shameful, and let us together continue to search?
What is God saying to your heart? Could you hear His voice right now? Could we together, again lay on our faces and worship the Lord Jesus? Will he reproach us? Did He reproached the humbled souls who felt on their faces before him?
Don't give up Matt! Seek revelation from God!
[b]1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; [/b]
I'm waiting for response, there is much more to be said about the subject, just open your heart Matt, we will search together. There is so much more. |
| | 2007/11/3 20:49 | Profile |
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