| Poster | Thread | hulsey
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Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I don't know why anyone on here bothers talking to Nile about this any further,
They way I'm looking at it right now is that Nile and Wildbranch have opened up a forum where the Deity of Christ can be wonderfully and EASILY defended.:-)
His attack on Scripture is only serving to establish it.
[b]Nile,
I would still love you read your exposition of John Ch. 1.[/b]
*Quote:
I don't know about your Jesus Robert, but my Jesus had to learn obedience and to love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Hebrews 5:8
though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered
Isaiah 15-16
Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
Woah! Nobody likes to hear those verses!
Read them again. And once more.
Was there time when Jesus didn't know to refuse evil and choose good? How is this possible if Jesus is God?
I have NEVER EVER EVER had a problem with this my friend and I'm sure Robert hasn't either. You see, for those who believe ALL of scripture the humanity of Christ is one of the most blessed subjects in the Bible. Jesus also had to learn to talk, to walk, to speak. According to Luke He grew in wisdom and favor with men and God.
NOT ONE TIME will I ever deny a scripture showing the full humanity of Christ. He was absolutely as human as you and I are only without sin.
[b]We don't have a problem with the scriptures pointing to the humanity of Christ. How come you have a problem with the scriptures that equally and JUST AS PLAINLY point to His divinity???[/b]
Jesus Christ was God from eternity, and from the moment of His conception became 100% Man, and 100% God at the same time.
Quote:
I don't know about your Jesus Robert, but my Jesus
Yes Nile, if this is what you've become convinced of, the Jesus you serve is another Jesus.
*edited (I missed this comment by Nile and couldn't help answering it :-))
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
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|  2007/11/5 16:11 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: waiting for exposition of John 1 | | quote:------------"Nile, I would still love you read your exposition of John Ch. 1."
Hulsey------------The link that Nile provided is a good study on that. I have posted the conclusion of the study below. Also, it was covered a bit in the bibilical unitarian thread.
It fits in well with the signature that appears on each of your posts:
-- In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise --
The outcome of the Greek philosophical (the church moving to Greece where it became a philosophy) interpretation of the Word becoming flesh, is called Dualism.
Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars. The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:
"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."
The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).
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| | 2007/11/5 16:48 | Profile | hulsey
Moderator
Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).
You all are so predictable. It's about time you took the bait.
This might be a little long so I apologize:
[b]The Logos[/b]
En arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos ho logos
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with the God and God was the word"
This is an early Aramaic Christian hymn to Christ as God as the introduction to John's Gospel. It has three stanzas each having ho logos "the word" in focus.
[b]The Meaning of Logos[/b]
When the dust finally cleared on the nineteenth century controversy over whether the meaning of the word logos is to be sought in ancient Greek philosophy or in the Old Testament and in early Judaism, it became clear that John was referring to Jesus as the "Word of the Lord" mentioned so many times in the Old Testament, the Targums, and in other early Jewish works. Hendrikson conludes, "It is rooted no in Greek but in Semitic thought."
The nineteenth century liberals had tried to inject an element of philosophic sophistication into John's use of the logos which was nothing more than eisogeses on their part. They forgot that John was a simple man writing to a simple people and to to Greek philosophers. John's point is quite simple: Just as your words reveal what is in your mind, even so the pre-incarnate Word is the revelation of the mind of the Father (John 1:18).
Of course, there are those who are still caught in a nineteenth century time warp and think that John was referring to pagan Greek concepts of the Logos. They have yet to read the Targums or the Dead Sea Scrolls. They need to break free from the eroneous pre-archeological speculations of nineteenth century German rationalism.
[b]In the Beginning Was the Word[/b]
The imperfect en, (was), must designate, according to the ordinary meaning of the tense, the simultaneousness of the act indicated by the verb with some other act. This simultaneousness is here that of the existence of the Word with the fact designated by the word beginning. "When everything which has begun began, the Word was." Alone then, it did not begin; the Word was already. Now that which did not begin with things, that is to say, with time, the form of the developement of things, belongs to the eternal order...The idea of this first proposition is, therefore, that of the eternity of the Logos.
Thus the Word existed before the beginning, since He has always existed. With Him there is no beginning. He is eternal and everlasting...It is impossible to avoid the force of John's grammar.
[b]and the Word was with God[/b]
John 1:1 describes the relationship of the Word first to the creation then to the Father. When we think of the relationship between the Word and the creation, the Word is not a part of the creation because He existed before it. And since He is before it, He is not with it. Sine the Word is not with the creation then He must be with the Father from all eternity. John's logic is simple and straight forward on this point.
Johns use of the preposition "pros" "with" is significant. It implies that the Father and the Son had an intimate as well as eternal relationship.
Lenski says,
"The preposition pros, as distinct from eos, para, adn syn, is [b]of the greatest importance[/b]... The idea [b]is that of presence and communion[/b] with a strong note of reciprocity--in other words an equal relationship. [b]The Logos, then, is NOT AN ATTRIBUTE INFERRING in God, OR A POWER EMANATING from Him, BUT A PERSON in the presence of God and turned in loving inseparable communion toward God and God turned equally toward Him. [i]He was another and yet not other than God.[/i][/b]
The sheer force of John chapter one undercuts any and all denials of either the Humanity or Deity of Jesus Christ. You can't have a personal relationship with an idea.
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2007/11/5 17:28 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | BenWilliams:
Quote:
BenWilliams wrote:
Well, when I first saw this discussion, I was very interested in joining it, as I have spent the last number of months studying the divinity of Christ, because of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
However, after having read almost 8 of the 12 pages here, I discovered that Nile has yet to answer any post that contains a scripture in it. At least in context.
Sorry, I was busy and unable to post for a while. Page 9 is when I join back into the discussion.
Nile
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/11/5 17:40 | Profile |
| | Re: One more time - Rev chpt.s 19-22 | | Quote:
Nile wrote:
Isaiah 15-16
Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
Woah! Nobody likes to hear those verses!
Matt - you left off the preceeding verse from Isaiah 7 which is 14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name [b]Immanuel[/b].
"Immanuel" = GOD WITH US.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 [b]I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, [u]the Almighty[/u].[/b]
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, [b]I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last[/b]:
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be 'with them', and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[b]~~NEXT THREE VERSES ARE IN 'RED'.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; [u]and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.[/u][/b] |
| | 2007/11/5 17:51 | | hulsey
Moderator
Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri
| | Piling on | | Here's another:
John 1:18 God himself no one has ever seen. [b]The only begotten God[/b], who lies upon the Father's breast, it is he who made him known.
(Hedrikson's trans.)
This reading is supported by the many of the best manuscripts.
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2007/11/5 17:58 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
The idea of gods becoming men was very prevalent in the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural to inject this belief into Christianity. As you can see, the idea of Dualism is the exact definition that Trinitarians have used for Jesus: He has two natures. He is fully God and fully Man. This is stated in the Chalcedon Creed of 451 AD. Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah).
This is a typical early on teaching in Messianic Jewish circles; but rarely, so far as my experience goes, do they go so far as to deny the Deity of Christ.
Quote:
Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah)
I knew the use of the term Yeshua would not go on forever. Starts to feel almost pretentious after a while, does it not? ;-)
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 18:17 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: Yeshua, pretentious name | | RobertW II wrote to me:--------------"Jesus is not a godman, he is the Anointed (the Messiah)
I knew the use of the term Yeshua would not go on forever. Starts to feel almost pretentious after a while, does it not?"
***[i]pretentious[/i] ???
To call the Messiah by the name that his parents were told to is NOT pretentious. Not in my books - sorry. I make no apology for using his God-given name.
But that aside, RobertW II, I copy-pasted that from the link that Nile had provided.
"And thou shalt call his name YESHUA; for he shall save his people from their sins!" AMen!!
*pretentious*...are you sure??
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| | 2007/11/5 18:33 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise
This has a real attractive and even clever ring to it; but it is not true.
Greek influence upon the people of God did not begin when the Church was driven West. Albeit the non-believing Jews [i]were[/i] cursing the believers in the synagogues with the Birkat ha Minim before the destruction of the Temple. And while that was happening the Galileans, Zealots and other members of the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1949]Jewish Freedom Movement[/url] and were working towards a baptism of fire and blood upon Jerusalem. Overall unrest was erupting around the actions of the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1951]ROBBERS[/url] and [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1952]The ASSASINS[/url], along with [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1950]THE ZEALOTS[/url] led to the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1953]Destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. [/url] These are the events that did the MOST to drive Christianity towards the West.
Beside of this, when Alexander the Great conquered the then known world the language of Greek spread throughout. This was convenient for the spread of the Gospel and was prophesied through Nebuchadnezzars dream centuries before. Jews from the Diaspora were living in a Greek culture and were speaking the Greek language. This gave rise to a new term that we must concern ourselves with at this time called [i]Hellenism[/i]. Hellenists are Greek speaking Jews. Hellenism is a blanket term to describe Greek ideas, style, and culture among the Jews.
The Greeks were pagan and very superstitious (Acts 17). It was actually a culture of paganism. They had many gods and mythologies too numerous to even begin to discuss. One thing stands out about the Greeks as it pertains to the Jews that made for a great concern among those who followed scripture; and it was that of Emperor Worship. A major change came with Alexander the Great. He seems to have wished to be treated as a god in his lifetime, and the Hellenistic monarchies followed suit.
Certain leaders received what are called isotheoi timai (honors equal to the gods'): priests, sacrifices, an image among those of the gods. Political tribes named after them, their birthday and day of ascension are celebrated like religious holidays. The kings assumed titles associated with their godlike actions: ktistes (founder), euergetes (benefactor), soter (savior). To what extent they were really considered gods is unclear, but the Jewish Freedom Movement participants would view this as a breach of the 1st commandment. From a Jewish standpoint, this is totally unacceptable. The Galileans rose up over the census- likely because it would be for tax purposes. This led to one revolt after another over the next centuries. Those zealous Jews (see previous teachings on the Jewish Freedom Movement) refused to be under Roman dominion is a fashion that made the emperor out to be a god. Taxes in their minds equaled paying tithe and to pay tithe is to give homage to someone or something.
[u]The Septuagint (LXX)[/u]
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX which means 70) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. The Septuagint was completed in Alexandria, Egypt between 300-200 BC. Many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language so the Septuagint became widely used among Hellenistic Jews.
The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek gave many non-Jews their first look at the Word of God. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term Septuagint means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars. According to Ptolemy II Philadelphus, King of Egypt (287-47 BC) had recently established a valuable library at Alexandria. He was persuaded by Demetrius of Phalarus, chief librarian, to translate a copy of the sacred scriptures of the Jews.
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 18:35 | Profile | hulsey
Moderator
Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe, where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America, where it became an enterprise
This has a real attractive and even clever ring to it; but it is not true.
Hi Robert,
Sharon is actually quoting my signature. It's a comment from a minister observing how the Gospel, if not guarded, is changed and "culturized."
*edit: It's amazing that she would try to make use of that quote. After all it was not Greek philosophy or Alexadrian allegory that gave rise to the understanding of Christ being both fully God and fully man. However they did birth the heretical teachings we are fighting today.
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2007/11/5 18:39 | Profile |
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