| Poster | Thread | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
So, let me put forth something that can be destructo tested.
I believe Jesus being called Elohim does not prove that He is God Almighty, because Elohim means more than "God Almighty" and other people besides Jesus are called Elohim.
Trinitarians should not use this as an argument for the deity of Jesus.
I invite everyone to consider this.
Trinitarians? You mean Christians don't you? You still did not answer Jesus Christ being referred to as YHWH in those vast number of passages.
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Robert Wurtz II
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|  2007/11/5 13:19 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Speaking for myself, how can one deny the deity of the Holy Spirit of God? The very words "Spirit of God" define the phrase.
You would deny the [i]person[/i] of the Holy Spirit as being distinct from the Father and the Son.
Quote:
Both words were part of everyday Hebrew or Greek speech, having the literal meaning, breath or wind.
Can breath and wind be blasphemed?
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. (Mark 3L29
Can a mere breath or wind testify?
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Just a few examples.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 13:26 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | dorcas:
I appreciate your post, but I can't help but feel drastically misunderstood :-(
Quote:
As long as you are hoping to come away from Bible reading with a nice linear, academic precis, I fear you will be disappointed, and God may even withhold revelation from you, while you have any other agenda except to know Him alone.
dorcas, you paint it like I am a stiff logical robot who read something in the Bible that didn't make sense, so I threw out a doctrine to make things work.
I have no problem saying that the trinity cannot be understood. That isn't why I reject it! I reject it because I have found out that all of the arguments for the trinity that I was taught [u]are very bad un-scriptural arguments[/u]. Not seeing any good arguments for the trinity, but rather seeing a multitude of reasons to accept the truth that Jesus is the Messiah, in fact the SON of God, not God the Son, even the BEGOTTEN SON not the Unbeggoten God. Christ is man just like me and you in every way, yet without sin. [u]This is plain plain, straight up scripture[/u]. I am practically quoting verses here.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I have not been "logically forced" into rejecting the trinity but have been "common sensed","big pictured", and "Biblical reasoned" into rejecting it.
I just wish others would open their eyes to and dare to question what they've been taught their whole life. If you're right, then you know it all the more, and will have good arguments against deception. If you're wrong, then amen for searching out the truth.
Nile
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/11/5 14:33 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: can God be tempted to worship Satan?... | | HeReigns,
I am sorry that the posting from Romans offended you. :cry: It was not meant to judge or condemn or offend you.
I felt that it was relevant to the thread specifically because of its warning to those who exchanged the glory of the incorruptible (rsv Immortal) God for an image in the form of corruptible [mortal] man, or birds, or animals or reptiles. The discussion about whether God (in his human form as many understand), can be tempted to worship Satan, or be tempted to do evil. As has been stated by James - He cannot be tempted to evil (He is incorruptible). Most hold (according to the postings), that the temptation of the Messiah was real, he was tempted by Satan after his 40 day fast in the wilderness. They then say that Messiah is 100% YHWH, making him able to be tempted.
Yes, ultimately the passage does say that those who do that will be given up to the lusts of their heart etc...
I do not judge anyone on this forum. I do not condemn anyone to hell or say that they are lost, deliver them up to Satan etc.
I appreciate that most here are sincere, devoted Christians. That most believe something that I believe to be gross error does not entitle me to sit as judge over them. Rom: 2:16 says: ...."God shall judge the secrets of men by Yeshua the Messiah according to my gospel". He is the righteous, merciful judge, and I will leave that to Him.
Peace to you all
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| | 2007/11/5 14:38 | Profile | hulsey
Moderator
Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 653
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I just wish others would open their eyes to and dare to question what they've been taught their whole life. If you're right, then you know it all the more, and will have good arguments against deception. If you're wrong, then amen for searching out the truth.
Nile,
No man EVER told me that Jesus was God. With few exceptions of children's stories no one ever attempted to explain God to me at all. All my early understanding of Him came from reading the Bible, including Jesus being God. I was not taught that, I read it from the scriptures. I didn't need a Greek scholar or MDiv to tell me. I wasn't convinced by a Church council or deceived by Constantine. After years of studying the Bible, you telling me and others on SI that Jesus is not God incarnate is like trying to tell us that the story of Pinocchio did not include a puppet.
The whole of Scripture is centered on this Nile. It's so plain that your conclusion is absurd. If a 12 year old can see this and 23 years later only be more convinced I find it funny that your 2 week "Bible Study" is going to change the world.
We're still waiting for your exposition of the 1st chapter of John.
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Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2007/11/5 14:45 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Re: to Sharon -
Posting Romans 1 to us who stand on the fact that Messiah was and is GOD is Offensive not to anyone "personally" but to GOD Himself.
On the last thread, you tried this emotionalism after you had posted so much also.
That no one else hasn't brought up your Romans chpt 1 post, I can only see as mere kindness or tolerance on their part - but that did not only "offend me" - singular because it wasn't post 'to' me - but to all of us here, except Nile.
_________________________________________
Re: 'The Spirit' posts -
Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of [u]the Spirit of Jesus Christ[/u]
Pe 1:10,11 Of which salvation [u]the prophets[/u] have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time [u]the Spirit of Christ which was[b] in[/b] them[/u] did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
[b]Spirit of Christ . . . in them[/b]-- , in oldest manuscripts, "the Spirit of Jesus").
JUSTIN MARTYR says, "Jesus was He who appeared and communed with Moses, Abraham, and the other patriarchs."
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA calls Him "the Prophet of prophets, and Lord of all the prophetical spirit." JFB
the Spirit of Christ in them did signify; or "make manifest": from whence it appears, that Christ then existed, as he did before there were any prophets, and even from everlasting, being the eternal God; and that the Spirit is from him, as well as from the Father; and as here, so he is often by the Jews (a) called רוחא משיחא, "the Spirit of the Messiah", or "Christ"; and that the Spirit is truly God, since he could declare beforehand the exact time of Christ's coming, and the finality of the age in which he came, as well as bear a previous testimony to his sufferings and glory; as also, that he was in the prophets, and they were inspired by him, and spake as he moved and directed them: (a) Zohar in Gen. fol. 19. 3. & passim. Gill
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [u]Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [/u] |
| | 2007/11/5 15:04 | | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Christ is man just like me and you in every way, yet without sin. This is plain plain, straight up scripture. I am practically quoting verses here.
What a marvelous thing! In an earlier thread we were defending Pelagianism- taken together; if Pelagius and Nile are right- any one of us could have been the Messiah if only we had actually been sinless.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 15:09 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Compton:
Quote:
Collossians 1 ...for by him all things were created...
The thing most drastically needed is to throw out this Greek way of thinking and think like Hebrews!
Jesus said in Luke 6, "...Give to everyone who asks of you..."
Hey Compton! Gimme me a million dollars!
"Huh? No."
Yeah, the scripture says, it's plain as day!
"No, it doesn't mean give to everyone who asks of you."
lol! Yes it does! You're denying the plain truth of scripture!
"You're tearing scriptures out of context. You're building a doctrine on one verse. Your forgetting common sense. Jesus obviously didn't mean it the way you're saying."
...
Now lets look at Collossians 1 [i]in context[/i].
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Now...lets look at the flow of thought.
vs. 13
[i]He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,[/i]
So Paul is talking about a [u]kingdom[/u] here, the kingdom of The Son.
vs. 14
[i]in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.[/i]
We enter into this kingdom through Christ's blood. By it, we are redeemed (from the kingdom of Darkness) to the kingdom of the Son.
vs. 15
[i]He is the image of the invisible God[/i]
Jesus is the perfect man. He fulfills what God said when He said, "Let us make man in our image." (us = plural intensive. common literary device.) If we see the Son, we have seen the Father.
[i]the firstborn over all creation.[/i]
Firstborn over all creation? What? Jesus surely wasn't the first man born. He was born after millions of other men. So what is Paul talking about? Well, [b]remember the context[/b].
vs. 13
[i]He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love[/i]
Think Jewish. Firstborn. Ring a bell? We're not talking about [u]time[/u] here, we're talking about authority and heirship! Jesus is the firstborn in the Kingdom of God! That is to say, Jesus has the first place, the highest spot, the most rights, all the inheritance. This idea is repeated a few verses later:
vs. 17&18
[i]And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.[/i]
Is it starting to make sense now? Paul isn't talking about Jesus [i]existing[/i] before all things, he's talking about in the kingdom of God, Jesus is [b]before all things as the righteous Son, the anointed King![/b] Jesus has the chief place of authority, honor, and glory.
Now, lets look at verse 16 which is right in the middle of all this kingdom talk.
vs. 16
[i]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.[/i]
Do you see it yet? Let list the things which Jesus created:
1. Thrones.
2. Dominions.
3. Principalities.
4. Powers.
If it's not obvious yet, [b][i]these are all Kingdom things!!![/i][/b] It doesn't say anything like "Jesus created the rocks and trees." No! [b]That's not the context! The context is the kingdom of the Son![/b]
To sum it up, all things pertaining to the Kingdom of God were created by Jesus and for Jesus. Try reading the passage again from that perspective.
This also explains the other passages talking about Jesus creating the world (Compare with Hebrews 1:2 ("world" is "age"), Hebrews 1:10 and Hebrews 2:5) and the passages that talk about Jesus being the First and the Last (in Revelation).
...
I hope everyone reads this explanation closely. Click on any of the links I have posted and you will see this idea expounded on and supported even more. Here are some of them again:
http://www.creatorgod.org/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
Compton, I will address the rest of your post in a future post.
Nile
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Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/11/5 15:12 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I appreciate that most here are sincere, devoted Christians.
This is not a matter that is up for debate within Christendom. This is an unalterable essential Christian doctrine in question. This is not some side issue that we can agree to disagree on.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/5 15:13 | Profile | Compton
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
Simply pointing to a Bible verse does nothing....
What we need is reasonable discussion. I believe X because of Y. Saying, "X is wrong" does nothing. What would help is to say, "I understand that you believe X because of Y.
Nile...you've taken away my "Y" by telling us not to point to a verse in the bible to pursuade you. That was my reasonable dicussion...everything else is intellect and philosophy.
Nile, I appreciate that you feel you've given this matter sufficient thought. I am, however sad that you feel you can't place trust in any authority...not sad only for you per se, but for the Church in your generation. The post-modern agnostic complaint that the bible is unclear and that truth is unknowable has gained ground in this thread. A few fitting lines of 17th century poetry by John Dryden...
For did not Arius first, Socinus now,
The Son's Eternal Godhead disavow?
And did not these by gospel texts alone
Condemn our doctrine, and maintain their own?
Have not all heretics the same pretence
To plead the Scriptures in their own defence?
:-(
MC
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Mike Compton
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| | 2007/11/5 15:14 | Profile |
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