| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
to cover our rebeion, not our crippeledness.
Obediance was not imputed to us, but righteousness was.
Then, who makes up for the lifetime lack of obedience until we are born again? God must have a perfect righteousness to forgive us. Therefore someone must live perfectly for us, and also die to pay the penalty of sin.
Imputation is found in the OT as well. The sacrificial system was completely about imputation. As the sinner laid their hand upon the head of the spotless animal, his guilt was transferred to the animal. The scapegoat clearly portrays one dying in the place of another, and the taking away of sin.
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If your going to be using Scriptural fraizes, please get them correct;1Corinth 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be made alive.
This is a physical death because the verse before it is physical:
1Corinth 15:2-12 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
No brother this is clearly showing the difference in each of the representatives. Everyone in Adam will die, are dying, suffer the effects of that death(spiritual and physical).
Compare this to the parallel passage in Romans 5-
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This clearly shows that everyone in Adam dies, and suffers the implications of sin. All those in Christ will live.
One of the key points of Paul's theology is the headship of Adam and Christ and how men fall in one group or the other. Those in Adam must be re-born into Christ.
Now consider when Adam sinned and what God said to him, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17)
Now the structure of this is literally, "dying you shall die", it was not a death that happened just physically, as there was also an immediate separation between Adam and God. This why we also are separated from God.
Because you cannot simply pick and choose when the headship and imputation is ok, and when it is not. Either man has fallen in Adam, and must be re-made a new race(not literally) in Christ, or there is no universal guilt, and man may use whatever is in him to basically save himself when he chooses. By the way this is nothing more than a Roman Catholic idea of salvation.
The notion that God in His grace makes salvation possible, if we would just believe is Roman, but not Biblical. The RC believes that God infuses grace, that a sinner must co-operate with to be saved.
The Bible clearly shows that God saves men, He changes their hearts to believe.
James cannot contradict Paul brother. The verb form for justification that Paul uses clearly shows that it is a declaration that is a one time event with ongoing effects, and since it is in the passive mood, it happens "to us", not "by us".
As I have said before, the faith that justifies also produces works of sanctification.
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More like man must maintain his relaitionship with Christ as He is doing the same; it is as a merriage, both partners need to give 100%
Really? Have you given your 100% all the time to your wife? to Christ?
If it were based upon my work, or my faithfulness brother God would never have chosen me, as He would have foreseen failure, and unfaithfulness. So if it is based upon anything, it based upon His choosing me, and sustaining me, working in me to will and to do His good pleasure.
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Furthermore, that is not love which you describe; Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, does not behave itself rudely, seeks not her own, is not easily provoked, keeps no record of evil; rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.
But that is the theology of Finney, and Wesley brother. There is no room for mistake, because if you sin, you are not saved, and the merciful God who desires to pull the beggar from the dunghill, now casts him back there time and time again.
I was commenting on Finney who believes a man must be perfectly obedient in order to prove his salvation or else he is not saved at all.
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If one has no ability to do so, then one is excused from the moral obligation.
Man had ability in Adam, but lost it when he sinned. Even if you do not believe this, you must at least admit that upon the first sin committed, a man forfeits ability, and falls into condemnation, and then must seek someone to rescue him.
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How is Adam my representative?
Well, here is where "all" actually means all, and you and I are part of the all of mankind. Thus, in Adam all die, we all sin, we all reap the repercussions of sin daily. You and I were both in Adam, just like we were in Christ when He took our sins to the Cross, and when He rose to Heaven, that is why we who believe are now seated with Him in Heavenly places.
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Would you call a command of mowing the law for a new born(not a two year old) justifide?
No, because the new born has ability to do it. But this is not the case in our discussion, and which ever type you use, you must start with one who could forfeiting that ability for those who followed.
Like a man who could walk, yet lost his legs, and then from him came nothing but legless people who could not walk. Then One comes and says, "stand up and walk!" and gives them the ability to walk.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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|  2007/10/31 21:33 | Profile | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | I am responding to an earlier comment by Jim:
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Because the more he knows about God the more he hates him, because God is rightouss and man is evil...
This is the danger of preaching a lopsided view of God. It is why it is important to bear witness to Christ! (Acts 1:8) If our preaching and our lives do not exalt the pre-eminence of Christ, we end up presenting an unapproachable God, a God who cant possibly love and forgive the sinner or set him/her free from sin. Our ministry will be one of condemnation more than conviction. Many, many souls have been driven from God because they received a distorted view of God, and all the while the preacher assumed he was preaching the gospel. He probably preached a gospel of works: a do-it-yourself religion. He preached condemnation. The thread [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20317&forum=35&9]Conviction or Condemnation[/url] explains better what I am trying to drive at.
While the above statement may contain truth, it may also be used as a handy excuse for bad preaching. Repentance on the part of the preacher would draw many more to God. After all, you cant give what you dont have.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2007/11/1 6:59 | Profile | wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: doctrine of original sin | | Quote:
Lazarus1719 wrote:
The Early Church Fathers all affirmed freewill and the doctrine of original sin is not found in their early writings. But around the time of Augustine, during a time when men would not endure sound doctrine, the doctrine of original sin ended up replacing the doctrine of freewill.
This is what Finney said about the doctrine of original sin. All who believe in Augustinianism would be wise to read it:
"This doctrine is a stumbling-block both to the church and to the world, infinitely dishonorable to God, an abomination alike to God and the human intellect, and should be banished from every pulpit, and form every formula of doctrine, and from the world. It is a relic of heathen philosophy, and was foisted in among the doctrines of Christianity by Augustine, as everyone may know who will take the trouble to examine for himself."
Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, Lecture on Moral Depravity, page 263
It must be clearly understood that sin is an abuse of freewill. Sin is not the lose of freewill or the corruption of your nature. It is willful rebellion against God. Sinners are [i]criminals[/i] and not [i]cripples[/i]!" end quote.
Yes, [b]AMEN[/b] to that!
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| | 2007/11/1 7:52 | Profile | wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: | | roaringlamb said: "Imputation is found in the OT as well. The sacrificial system was completely about imputation. As the sinner laid their hand upon the head of the spotless animal, his guilt was transferred to the animal. The scapegoat clearly portrays one dying in the place of another, and the taking away of sin."
Yes, AMEN. The sacrificial system was completely about imputation ~ imputation of [i]guilt[/i] ~ that is, the wages of sin.
YHWH, in His great mercy, then forgave the sinner by this act of faith and obedience. It was then up to this forgiven person to 'go and sin no more'. He could not rely on the sacrificial lamb/goat to keep the commandments for him, he had to sincerely demonstrate his repentence by seeking to walk in all of YHWH's commandments and ways.
As YHWH had said: [b]"For this commandment which I command you this day is[i] not too hard for you[/i], neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that [i]you can do it.[/i]"[/b] (Deuteronomy 30:11-14}
Yeshua the Messiah demonstrated to us a perfect life of devotion and obedience to His God and our God.....He then told us to walk as he walked, while promising us grace to do so as our lives are empowered by the Spirit of God.:-)
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| | 2007/11/1 8:27 | Profile | whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293
| | Re: | | If man chooses to suprress the truth in unrighteousness because he loves the darkness rather than the light, why doesn't God just honor that choice and stop shining the light on that man and forcing him to see the light? Choosing isn't the issue at all. It's not that man hasn't seen the light, he sees it everywhere, he just loves the darkenss. You tell me how someone who has seen God in every part of Creation and still loves the darkness is going to get "persuaded" by more light. Paul makes it clear that we are all without excuse, whether we are the pagan in Africa who sees God's hand in creation or Paul who is blinded by the very presence of God himself. Logic and Lazarus, you argue implicitly that those who believe in elective mercy think man should be punished even though he isn't responsible. We don't believe that. All men are responsible for their own sins. All men have a sinful nature. The Bible says so. Mankind isn't just being punished for sinful acts but for a sinful heart that hates God and loves himself. Did a man choose to be born that way? No. Why was he born that way. The only explanation that we have is the explanation Paul gives in Romans 9? Who are you to say to the Potter......... |
| | 2007/11/1 8:31 | Profile | wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: doctrine of original sin | | Pelagius (ca. 354 - ca. 420/440) was an ascetic monk and reformer who denied the doctrine of Original Sin from Adam and was [b]declared a heretic[/b] by the [b]Roman Catholic Church[/b]. His interpretation of a doctrine of free will became known as Pelagianism.
There are a wide range of false doctrines that have been taught about Mary (Miriam), the mother of Yeshua, because of the false doctrine of inherited sin.
The practice of Infant Baptism, Confirmation, the worship of Mary, the Assumption of Mary, ...etc all sprung up because of this formulation of the doctrine of "inherited sin".
They had to do some fast 'backtracking' in making Mary absolutely pure, (and her mother), to cover the obvious faults in the doctrine of Mary being born a sinner, as she was of course later called by the same people, "Mary, the Mother of God. So Mary had to have an 'immaculate conception' in the womb of St Anne (Hannah),her mother, so as not to be born with the stain of Adam's sin.
Mary is then held to have had no other children (contrary to Scripture), and to have been a "perpetual virgin".:-o
~~Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive~~Sir Walter Scott
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| | 2007/11/1 9:32 | Profile | wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: | | Scripture plainly teaches that sin is not inherited:
. . . the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father . . . (Ezek. 18:20);
every person is responsible for his own conduct (Rom. 14:12).
Human sinfulness commences in that period of ones life that is characterized as youth (Gen. 8:21; Jer. 3:25).
A child must reach a certain level of maturity before be is able to choose between evil and good (Isa. 7:15, 16).
The qualities of little children are set forth as models for those who would aspire to enter the kingdom (Matt. 18:3; 19:14), and for those already in the assembly (1 Cor. 14:2O). Surely Yeshua was not suggesting that we emulate little, totally corrupt sinners!
The human spirit is not inherited from ones parents; rather, it is given by God (Eccl. 12:7; Heb. 12:9). Hence, at birth it must be as pure as the source from whence it comes. We are made in the [b]image of God[/b]
Our Father is loving, kind and most merciful!. That he would destroy a little child who dies before he has heard the Gospel is to make Him into a monster, requiring the impossible from His creation.
Through Adam sin came into the world....but it is crouching at the door, and we must overcome it by Choice.
We live in a totally corrupt and depraved society...the outcome of sin having entered the world through Adam. It is our choice to embrace it; or reject it, as Messiah did.
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| | 2007/11/1 9:44 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
"For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. [u]It is not in heaven[/u], that you should say,
You probably know that once the pharisees had fully rejected Christ they set about to establish their own righteousness (but not submitting themselves to the righteousness of God) at the academy of Yavneh (Jamnia). Here they started Rabbinic Judaism. It was here that they began to declare [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1959]IT IS NOT IN HEAVEN. [/url]
The Rabbi's followed a similar patern to both Pelagius and Finney in that they reject the need for a true regeneration as it is understood in Protestant Christian Orthodoxy. They reject their need for a 'Savior'. They can follow God's commands in of themselves and have no need for Christ. Interestingly they even found a way around the need for a sacrificial system declaring tzedikah as the substitute for the Temple.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2007/11/1 10:50 | Profile | wildbranch
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: | | RobertW: Quote:
For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say
Right. It is not in heaven as something too high for us.
The Council of Yavneh did indeed see the beginnings of rabbinic Judaism in an attempt to define the way forward without the Temple and sacrifices, and, sadly, without the knowledge of Messiah.
Because some group or individual has reinterpreted that verse does not mean that it no longer stands with all the full intent with which YHWH had declared it.
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both Pelagius and Finney in that they reject the need for a true regeneration
Finney [b]rejected[/b] the need for true regeneration??? :eek:
[b]Obedience[/b] and [b]grace[/b] are not mutually exlusive. One of my favorite sayings is: [i]We seek to follow and obey the commandments of God, not to enter the Kingdom, but because we [b]are in the Kingdom[/b].[/i]
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| | 2007/11/1 11:33 | Profile | roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
. . . the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father . . . (Ezek. 18:20);
Yes but right before this, it says that the soul that sins shall die. All have sinned, therefore all die.
I don't believe anyone said anything about inheriting sin, but rather that sin and its effects are imputed to man from the womb. This is clearly seen by the fact that even infants suffer illness, pain etc.
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every person is responsible for his own conduct (Rom. 14:12)
Here is the verse you use-
Romans 14:12 So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God.
Again, we must be careful in applying passages written to Christians to unbelievers. Paul is saying that we are not to judge other brothers or sisters in what they eat, or do not eat. Of course this may have a different application to day, but this in no way means that unbelievers are going to give an account before God.
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A child must reach a certain level of maturity before be is able to choose between evil and good (Isa. 7:15, 16).
This passage does not apply to people in a "general" sense, but rather is a prophecy stating that before the child reaches a certain age, the kings of Samaria and Syria would be destroyed. So it would be difficult to make a doctrine from it.
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The human spirit is not inherited from ones parents; rather, it is given by God (Eccl. 12:7; Heb. 12:9). Hence, at birth it must be as pure as the source from whence it comes. We are made in the image of God
A child comes from sinful flesh, as it is created by sinful flesh.
If indeed children are born pure as you say, then when do they commit their first sin that allows them to be subject to death, sickness, pain and other effects of sin, or rather symptoms that spring forth from the guilt of man?
The image of God has been so terribly corrupted that man must be born again to even have any semblance of Christ, and even this treasure is held in clay pots which are not that great to look at. :-)
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Our Father is loving, kind and most merciful!. That he would destroy a little child who dies before he has heard the Gospel is to make Him into a monster, requiring the impossible from His creation.
I do not think anyone said anything about children being damned, for I believe because of God's goodness, these are His elect and He regenerates them and brings them to Heaven.
However we must face the facts that infants die before hearing the Gospel. So does this mean that God is not loving? Absolutely not, it is the effect of sin upon man, and in an instant God could remove sin forever. He however has not chosen to do so.
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Through Adam sin came into the world....but it is crouching at the door, and we must overcome it by Choice.
What if your choice is a slave to its passions, and only wants to choose sin?
Even if you could "choose" not to sin, then why would you need a Saviour? You could in effect save yourself by not sinning. Then you would have a religion similar to other false religions that say if you deny yourself, or choose to do the right things, you can reach heaven. Then it becomes all about what you have done, and Heaven is a reward for your good works.
This is not Christianity at all. Christianity is not about us working to achieve Heaven, but rather about the Christ who has died to open Heaven to those who are justified before God by faith in Him. Even this faith is a gift from God, so as to keep us from boasting that we had done something to merit our salvation.
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We live in a totally corrupt and depraved society...the outcome of sin having entered the world through Adam. It is our choice to embrace it; or reject it, as Messiah did.
Our natural choice is to embrace sin, not to hate it, that is why a man must be born again. He must Have his heart changed, so that he would now desire to please God rather than himself, and so that he would hate sin rather than crave it.
Christ was without sin, thus though He was tempted, He never would have fallen. We however are not, and never have been without sin, thus we cannot "choose" to be like Christ.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/11/1 11:38 | Profile |
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