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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Holy Spirit.

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"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws".

But not the Law of Moses. Abraham lived by faith and the Obedience of Faith.

All that Abraham did was by faith. Circumcision on the 8th day, was a type or shaddow of the putting off of the sins of the flesh by the resurrection of Christ....***Colossians 2

The 8th Day is the day Christ rose from the dead.

The sacrificing of Isaac upon the alter ...a type of Christ death and resurrection life.

All this was for our edification!

Circumcision did not save them, Romans 4. Circumcision was a SIGN of the Everlasting Covenant. ( Hebrews 13:20&21

Galatians 3
1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

 2007/11/8 11:55

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


Katy-did---------When you say the "Law of Moses", do you mean the "Law of God"? Just asking as some feel they are different.

Yes, Abraham did live by faith, and, as the scripture says - "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws".

Just as James says ...'faith without works is dead'... and ...'I by my works will show you my faith'...and speaking of Abraham...

James says in ch 2.....from verse 21: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

 2007/11/8 13:32Profile

 Re: Holy Spirit

wildbranch asked

do you mean the "Law of God"?

Hi wildbranch,

Please would you define 'law of God' and offer some scriptural support?

 2007/11/8 15:06

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


Dorcas asked------quote"Hi wildbranch, Please would you define 'law of God' and offer some scriptural support?

Dorcas, I will post some verses which reflect what I was thinking by the "Law of God". They basically emphasise that the Law of Moses is the same as the Law of God -the Law handed down by Moses from God.

Malachi 4:4 'Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments'.

Leviticus 26:46: “These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which YHWH made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.”

∙Numbers 36:13: “These are the commandments and the judgments, which YHWH commanded by the hand of Moses unto the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.”

∙Judges 3:4: “And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of YHWH, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.”

∙1Kings 2:3: “And keep the charge of YHWH your God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do, and whithersoever you turn yourself.”

∙2Chronicles 35:6: “So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of YHWH by the hand of Moses.”

∙Nehemiah 9:13-14: “You came down also upon mount Sinai, and spake with them from heaven, and gave them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments. And made known unto them your holy sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses your servant.”

------The Scriptures talk of Moses’ law because he handed them down from YHWH; in fact, the law originated with YHWH...

We read in 1Kings 2:3: “And keep the charge of YHWH your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses…”

Further in 2Kings 14:6 we find: “But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the law of Moses, wherein YHWH commanded…”

Ezra 7:6 says: “This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which YHWH , God of Israel had given.”

Nehemiah 8:1 tells us: “And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring Feast Days and Sabbaths of the law of Moses, which YHWH had commanded to Israel.”

.....just a quick selection of the many references in scripture.

 2007/11/8 15:59Profile


Hello Wildbranch,

I couldn't agree with you more that true faith does manifest in "obedience" of faith. Let's take Rahab as an example of what James is saying....Rahab...........

Now what Law of God or Moses, if you are saying they are the same?????, says "Thou must lie to thy neighbors and receive strangers into your house and lead them out so no one can see them" ?

Or what law of Moses says that we must kill our children? The law says...Thou shall not kill, and thou shall not lie. Seems there is a conflict here!

I don't see these Laws are the same at all. I see no such Law coming from the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses shows us our sin, for before Moses Law, sin was not imputed unto man...( romans 5) but the law of sin and death that Adam brought on when all mankind fell was imputed to all mankind.

What Law did Rahab keep in James 2:25 that showed us our sin, or revealed our sinful nature?

As in Adam all were made sinners, as in Christ many will be made righteous.

The law of Moses could never save anyone, even Paul, who said in Philippians 3 concerning the Law and his keeping it, said of himself before coming to Christ, thought of himself as[u][b]blameless[/b][/u], but then goes on to say, those things I thought were life are actually dung and death, that he might have the righteousness of Christ.
Romans 7 is a different Paul, now having received Christ asks "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death...I thank god through Jesus Christ my Lord.

Of that perfect *blameless* flesh he thought he had, now was saying..."Oh wretched man that I am"...

What a change of Heart. !

Here, the verses here in philippians 3 say it all:

Philippians 3
1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did ;-)

 2007/11/8 17:21

 Re: Holy Spirit

Thanks wildbranch

just a quick selection of the many references in scripture.

However, I notice you have offered only verses which refer to the law handed down to Moses.

I find these, though, in the New Testament:

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the [u]law of God[/u] according to the inward man.

Romans 7:25
I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the [u]law of God[/u], but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind [i]is[/i] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the [u]law of God[/u], nor indeed can be.

As these are all Paul's words, who elsewhere reminds Jews not to trust in... no, not to practise [i]keeping[/i]... Moses' law, 'the law of God' [i]must[/i] be something different.

 2007/11/8 17:52

Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138


Dorcas wrote: "However, I notice you have offered only verses which refer to the law handed down to Moses. .................

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
As these are all Paul's words, who elsewhere reminds Jews not to trust in... no, not to practise keeping... Moses' law, 'the law of God' must be something different."

Hi Dorcas,

I am not sure what you mean? The law of God is spiritual, thus the carnal mind is in enmity against God, because it is in rebellion to the law of God, and will not be subject to it. The carnal mind hates God's laws, statutes and commandments, and would have none of it. (we see what has happened in our society at large today, they have absolutely rejected the laws of God and embraced lawlessness, because they are in enmity to God).

Where does Paul remind Jews not to practice keeping Moses' law, which according to scripture (my previous post), was the very same thing as God's Law. How would it be possible for an apostle to overturn the Law of God (as delivered by Moses), when the Messiah himself upheld it? The book of Hebrews does explain in depth how the sacrifical and ceremonial law is no longer required, as Messiah himself has become the propitiation for our sins and a faithful High Priest on our behalf. The works of slaughtering and burning animals are no longer required, because they are redundant.

When you said that we must not keep Moses' law---what law is that? Do you believe that to be certain laws that were made up by Moses, apart from God?

When David extolled the law and expressed his delight and love for the law throughout Psalm 119, what law was he talking about? I do not see how one can take away from God's Law (delivered by Moses), by urging people to reject it . Yeshua clearly stated that we cannot relax even the least of the commandments, that in fact our righteousness has to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5). It says in Acts 7:38, that Moses received 'living oracles' to give to the people. The living oracles came from God, not Moses.


 2007/11/8 20:31Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


2 Corinthians 3:1-18 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

(This tables of stone are not written in tables of stone. That is the Law and commandments given to Moses. But by the Christ in us written in the tables of the heart. He is not written by Ink, or on stone, but by the Spirit of Christ in the Heart. The new creature.)

And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

Brought as life in Christ, Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,

(The law of Moses and the commandments written in stone, (10 commandments) kills and condemns. There is no salvation in them. They only bring us to Christ Gloriously to a better ministration of the Spirit in Christ Jesus who is born again in the believer to condemn and abolish all that interferes with the New Testament in The Blood of Christ.)

was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory,

(The ministration of the Law unto condemnation and death in itself is Glorious because it is the Law of God. But so much more is the ministration of the Spirit of Christ in you. A new and different way God has provided for those that are in Christ Jesus, saved to the utmost for all eternity.)

much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious,

(The Law was done away at the Cross because it was fulfilled by One Man Jesus Christ fulfilling all the requirements God required, so man might be saved By Him that is birthed in us, Jesus Christ the Son of God.)

much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

(Of that which is abolished. Or rather, to be abolished, (tou katargoumenou;) whose nature, design, and intention it was that it should be abolished. It was never designed to be permanent; and Paul speaks of it here as a thing that was known and indisputable that the Mosaic institutions were designed to be abolished.)

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

(They still work the Law that has been abolished in Christ Jesus to make Israel pleasing in the sight of God, which is not. If they turn to Jesus Christ the Vail is taken away and the glorious light of the Gospel shines in the darkness.)

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 13:10-13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(Is He come, do you see face to face, are we learning to live in Christ who is faith, hope and Love.)

2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

(Christ abolished the death of the Law at the Cross and we are no longer under the old Law but under the new commandments, Love God with a pure heart which is Christ in you the hope of Glory. Love your neighbor as your self. These are the two that remain, not the letter but the Spirit of all that God intends in Christ Jesus our Lord.)

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:37-39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

(These two commandments are Jesus Christ Himself.
Let us strive by the life of Christ that is in us to: Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.)

Christ liveth in me: Phillip


 2007/11/9 1:09Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Sister Katy wrote;

The Spirit and Person of Christ in us is that which unites us in His death and resurrection Life. It is the Spirit of Obedience, Surrender, Suffering, conforminng us to His Image, working in us and through us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (That I may KNOW Him and the fellowship of His sufferings being made conformable to his death that I may attain to the resurrection) It is the Spirit of Christ in us...full of Grace and Truth. THIS is OUR life under Grace. Grace is Calvary...the resurrection side. We are Saved by His RISEN life.

Have you yet considered Isaiah prophesy given to King Ahaz?

Have you yet considered how Scripture refers to Melchizedek and the fourth person found in the furnace with Shadrack, Mishack, and Adbendago? "one like the Son of God"

Do you suppose that Melchizedek was there in the furnace?

Your brother in Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/9 3:33Profile


Do you suppose that Melchizedek was there in the furnace?

Jeff, are you suggesting Melchizedek was there in the furnace?

The Lord has always been eternal. But to suggest "Jesus Christ the man" was there is impossible.

Something wonderful came to me last night. 1st John talks about the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of anti-christ.

Paul before his conversion actually had the spirit of anti-christ as did all the pharisees. Just revisit all the scriptures in the Gospels when Jesus is talking to the pharisees who thought they had it made just because they were Abraham's seed.

The Pharisees had a zeal for righteousness according to the Law but missed it..* Romans 10 * is clear on that. One can be so religious, so perfect(they may think) in their law keeping that they, like the Jews who rejected Christ, and our righteousness that comes by the faith of Christ, completely miss the mark.

I love Romans 10:9&10.....If you confess Jesus Christ and [u][i][b]believe in your HEART[/b][/i][/u] that God has [u][b]raised Him from the dead[/b][/u]thou shall be saved.

WOW, what a *contrast* to those he was referring to in the beginning of Romans 10.

This is where the Pharisee's missed it.....that we are saved by the *resurrected* Christ. We are saved by His risen life. If it were not so, you will not and could never be resurrected with Christ, or anyone for that matter. Jesus said. ***I AM the resurrection***.

Sorry folks, the Law, or keeping of it can't raise you from the dead.

God has dealt with men through out the centuries through "Covenants".

The New Covenant is based under [u][i][b]better[/b][/i][/u]promises. Even better than the Davidic Covenant..which was pretty good!

Which Covenant are you under?

Love in Christ

 2007/11/9 8:30

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