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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Holy Spirit.

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 Re: Holy Spirit

Hi Jeff,

I realise you feel strongly about these matters, but it would be impossible for you to even begin to think in terms of being free from the 'power of sin' had Jesus not been crucified and raised. That is the whole problem with your thesis.

[u]No-one[/u], least of all me, disputes the salvation of David, or his spiritual experiences in several realms of personal ministry and gift. But the Incarnation is pivotal in history, and altered forever the way God deals with mankind. When you say

I believe Scripture does give evidence that the OT saints were delivered from the power of sin...

it is because you are putting New Testament thinking and language to explain David's testimony.

One of my concerns about your way of reading the Old Testament, is that it undermines what Christ did come to do, by implying (almost) that His work was unnecessary, which this is definitely not the testimony of New Testament writers, nor the experience of those who have been purged from their sin and been born again.

Nicodemus had no idea what Jesus meant by 'born from above', so how can you attribute it to those who had gone before him?

We may have to work quite hard to estimate the enormous difference between the kind of knowledge and power that (say) Elijah had, and that of Jesus, but we simply [i][b]must[/i][/b] take the New Testament into our accounting.

For instance, John saying 'but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ'. I'm not suggesting you dispute John's word directly, but the belief that there was as much grace and truth in the Old Testament, is not scriptural, and teaching what is not in scripture, is a danger to your soul.

Scripture is clear that the OT saints had a life where..."in whose spirit there is no deceit."

OK. But it is an extrapolation on your part, to conclude that their lack of deceit was in the same order as Jesus' lack of deceit, which through the Holy Spirit since Pentecost, is imparted to New Covenant participants. That's where we differ.

I do not dispute any word in the Old Testament. But, it cannot mean what you are trying to make it mean, because of what is established in the New Testament writings by more than Paul.

For instance, if Christ came only to bring the gentiles into the one fold (John 10), why did the disciples need to wait until they were endued with power from on high?

Jesus could have given them power like they'd had before His death, to do miracles including the raising of dead, many kinds of healing, and casting out demons, and told them how to impart this power to others, [i][b]if[/i][/b] their faith in Him was all that they needed to be okayed for heaven. But it's more complicated than that (in one sense) and simpler than that at the same time.

For instance, in the Old Testament, everyone knew that the God of the Israelites was alive and full of power. To be blessed, you had to bear that in mind when dealing with His people. But not everyone in Israel was either interested or in touch with their God. How did God feel about this? [i]Grieved[/i]. He wanted a people of whom every single individual had a desire to know Him. Hard choices ahead (for God). But He is never one to compromise. And so He unfolds the plan of salvation, which will single out those who want that relationship with Him, from those who don't.

During the process of this, He abandons the blood line which began with Eve, and moves all those who will believe in Him from a salvation dependent on [i]natural[/i] obedience to His unmistakable word, to a salvation dependent on judging ourselves worthy of, [u]and[/u] obedience to death - which is far more exacting.

This is why I don't agree that the OT saints were saved on the same basis as we are. Not one of them had to agree with God that their sins rendered them worthy of death as a pre-requisite to knowing Him. God called them to obedience regardless of their pasts, and without punishing them for their sins (because He took that punishment upon Himself ultimately in Christ). In the meantime, He covered their sins with the blood of animals. Not one sin was taken away, according to Hebrews 10:4.

But we, to be born again, must acknowledge ourselves worthy of death, even if we have been brought up in a God-fearing environment. None of our filthy rags move Him. He sees our hearts and He pronounces us wanting. In fact, He often pronounces the OT inhabitants wanting, but they had no means of the kind of salvation which we experience. That's a fact, no matter how kind God was toward them, in the furtherance of His purposes for man.

 2007/11/21 16:39

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708



Linn wrote:

""One of my concerns about your way of reading the Old Testament, is that it undermines what Christ did come to do, by implying (almost) that His work was unnecessary, which this is definitely not the testimony of New Testament writers, nor the experience of those who have been purged from their sin and been born again""

Amen, for those that live in the old testament will die in the old testament.

Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

They did not know Him.

Romans 10:1-5 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ is outside of the Law and He is perfect that has given us His perfectness by His birth in us from the Father.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So then how do we live without the Law?

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

How do we die in the Law?

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

No man keeps the Law and will parish. It was not Cain that caused the whole human race to fall, it was Adam because he believe a lie, and not the truth of God.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Our victory is not in the old testament but in the New and that victory is Christ in you the same mystery.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

All of the old testament is fulfilled in Christ, leading all of creation to the New Testament, and all of the new testament is fulfilled in Christ. The old has passed away, let us live in the New, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Old Testament:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

New Testament:

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who's Faith are we justified by?

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Made righteous by Christ in you. Justified in righteousness by Christ in you.


Strong's Greek Dictionary
1343. dikaiosune
Search for G1343 in KJVSL
dikaiosunh dikaiosune dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay
from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification:--righteousness.

In Christ: Phillip


 2007/11/22 13:22Profile


Sister Katy wrote:


Even when Jesus Did rise again, look at Thomas, who said, I won't believe until I see.

These are signs and wonders...look to the sign that God gave Hezekiah...

Jeff, sometimes it helps to look at the end in order to understand the beginning.

Jesus Chist, the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, tht Beginning and the End..

The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New, and the New is revealed in the old.

This may help you understand. Who is the Temple, made without hands.

Everything you see was built upon the Prophets of the Old Testament. The foundation of the Revelation of Jesus Christ was laid in the Old Testament, through types and shadows. The Revelation of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is the Temple itself revealed. Jesus said, if you tear down "this" temple (referring to himself), I will raise it up in 3 days.

Mark 14:58
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Now, those who are Christ's enter into that Temple, through the veil, tht is to say His Flesh, (I am Crucified with Christ) buried with Him unto death, and raised up with Him a New Creation.

This is what you need to keep your mind on. And this is what WE now are looking to......

Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,[u][i]the tabernacle of God is with men[/i][/u] , and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

[u][i]22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. [/i][/u]

Love in Christ


 2007/11/23 6:24


Jeff, Part 2

Now that you see the end, here is the Middle, the here and now:

Romans - Christ our righteousness
1 Corinthians - Christ our wisdom
2 Corinthians - Christ our sufficiency
Galatians - Christ formed in us
Ephesians - Christ our Home
Philippians - Christ our Riches
Colossians - Christ our Life
1st Timothy - Christ our Commander and Chief
2nd Timothy - Christ our faithful
1st Thess - Christ our promise
2nd Thess - Christ our Hope
James - Christ our perfector
Peter - Christ our Rock
2nd Peter - Christ our Holiness
Hebrews - Christ our Temple - Christ our Mercy - Christ our boldness
1st John - Christ our overcomer
Jude - Christ our preserver
Revelation - Jesus Christ revealed ---all of the above.

Some may see other things as well, even more than this, but it was just a quick jot down for you to LIVE Today - In Christ, and let Him live in You and through you!

Love in Christ

 2007/11/23 10:49

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Sister Katy wrote:

The Old Testament is fulfilled in the New, and the New is revealed in the old.

I have heard this statement often... what does this mean to you that "the New is revealed in the old?"

Have you listened to any of the Revival Conference sermons? Is it proper for one to teach NT precepts found in the OT?

Your brother in Christ


Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/27 1:41Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Sister Lyn asked:

Do you mean you are separating those who kill as Cain did, from those who do\did not kill?

What I wonder is, why are you picking Cain and not Adam?

I used Cain as a means to show according to Scripture, because the Scriptures clearly states, that Cain became the son of Lucifer...

1John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

In this section of Scripture we find that Abel was a child of God and Cain was a child of Satan. This precept is first revealed to us in Genesis 3:15. We see that hatred rose up between Abel and Cain because they had different spiritual influences...

So when God spoke to Satan...

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;

We see that the first example of this precept manifested itself in the lives of Cain and Abel. Cain was the seed of Satan. Abel was the Seed of the woman. If we say, as Brother Phillip often speaks of Christ being birthed in the individual, are not all who live as Abel the Seed of the woman?

Now this precept is not only manifested once in Scripture but throughout.

We find that those who grow more and more of the likeness of Satan display the same character as Satan.

Dan. 5:22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.

In the book of Daniel we are given this description of a man who resembled the spiritual influence of his father Lucifer...
Dan. 5:22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven.

Now look to Isaiah for more detail in the example above...
Is. 14:3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
“How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden city ceased!
5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, “Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.’
9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
“Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.’
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
“I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 “For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts,
“And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD.

Do you recognize the way in which Isaiah who is inspired by the Holy Spirit, draws a likeness of Lucifer in the life of Belshazzar? This likeness is also prophesied to come again in the future when the Abomination of Desolation lifts himself up above all men and aspires to be you see how Scripture covers all generations?

The spiritual influences establish the motivations of the heart. Do you recognize the spiritual influences at work in the life of Cain and Belshazzar and those who become the seed of their father Lucifer?

Your brother in Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/27 2:03Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


I asked this question...

The spiritual influences establish the motivations of the heart. Do you recognize the spiritual influences at work in the life of Cain and Belshazzar and those who become the seed of their father Lucifer?

This spiritual influence born in men like Cain and Belshazzar also worked against those OT saints who were not of the same Father...

Heb. 11:32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

Why did these OT saints suffer? The answer is found in Genesis 3:15

In Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/28 2:02Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


This is a promise to all who turn at God’s rebuke…

Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

Look closely to what the promise brings to those who turn….

Below there are 3 examples of men who God spoke to…

Ezekiel 1:28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. 1 And He said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.” 2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

Jer. 1:9 Then the LORD put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me:
“Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.

2Sam. 23:1 Now these are the last words of David.
Thus says David the son of Jesse;
Thus says the man raised up on high,
The anointed of the God of Jacob,
And the sweet psalmist of Israel:
2 “The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.

What do we find when the Holy Spirit entered these men? What does it mean when God’s word is on their tongue, in their mouth?

Now look to the description of this event taught by Paul….

1 Corinthian 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

The Holy Spirit reveals the deep things of God to the spirit of man. And by this work of the Holy Spirit we are taught in this way…

Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

God says that He will make His words known to man by the pouring out of His Spirit on man.

This was testified to by Peter at Pentecost…

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Please notice that the action of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples….and God made known to them His words…

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.

These disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit just as Ezekiel was…

Ezekiel 2:
2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

There is no imagination involved, there is no private interpretation, there is only the word of God that is pure and that all Scripture supports itself….

Your brother in Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/28 4:42Profile


Have you listened to any of the Revival Conference sermons? Is it proper for one to teach NT precepts found in the OT?

Jeff, I certainly hope so, and the author of Hebrews thought so too. Did a mighty fine job I might add.

Paul uses in Galatains the purpose of the Law tht came out of the OT.

All teh Covenant Promises are certainly laid out in the OT that affect us today.

Revelation uses numerous OT thought as well as Peter using the flood during the time of Noah as a figure or Type of our resurrected life in Christ.

I don't think anyone could possibly understand the New without the foundation fo the Old.

And all furure prophecy is still in the OT of which some is touched on in the New...Romans 11 for example.

We learn so much about the charactor of God and how he deals with men, even in the OT, God had mercy. DAvid said His Mercy is New every day. That's true for today as well.

The wisdom of Solomon and the Proverbs are absolutely awesome, and a great idea to read one every day of the month for the rest of your lives.

Those who don't find these nuggets of Gold in the OT are only cheating themselves out of a richer deeper relationship with the Lord.

No I haven't listened to any of the Revival Conference sermons yet. I do look forward to listening to these.

Love in Christ

 2007/11/30 18:50

 Re: Holy Spirit

Jeff said

In this section of Scripture we find that Abel was a child of God and Cain was a child of Satan.

I think I'm realising what part of the difficulty is on my side, with this conversation. It is that I have been trained to use scriptural phraseology fairly relentlessly, to communicate. Yes I do put things in my own words, but those things are not intended to be or to sound like [i]doctrine[/i].

When you introduce a phrase like 'seed of Satan' - even though it can be extrapolated from what God said to Eve - it sets up a dissonance, because the phrase nowhere appears in that form, in scripture. God spoke to the serpent, and said He would put enmity between the serpent's seed and the seed of the woman.

Then, your use of 'child of God' to describe Abel, doesn't find resonance anywhere in the Old Testament, and in the New, Abel is described as 'righteous' - meaning he pleased God. There was no law, so there was no consciousness of sin, even though death was reigning (according to Paul). Nevertheless, God later told Abram to walk before Him blamelessly, so there was something these men knew which enabled them to make choices which pleased God. This is not the same as Abel being a 'child of God' or, Cain being a 'child of Satan'. Cain [i]sinned[/i].

By creating new terminology, whether you mean to or not, you are contradicting scripture to some extent, because Paul later says that God has concluded all under sin. So, Abel was not a 'child of God'. No-one was a 'child of God' until they were brought into sonship through the Son. Only as sons of Adam (the son of God) were they sons, by first birth, as we are - upon all of whom has passed death. This is [u]not[/u] the sonship into which the Son brings us by faith, that is, those of us who will [u]receive [b]Him[/b][/u] through spiritual rebirth.

A better way to convey biblical truth, is to go along with scriptural phrases.

 2007/12/1 13:42

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