| Poster | Thread | Scribe75
Member
Joined: 2007/10/26
Posts: 13
Naperville Il
| | Re: | | I'd like to hear the unitarian's view on atonement if Christ is not God. Christ is the voice of the Burning Bush in Exodus 3:14 (cf John 8:56) and the vision Isaih saw in Isaiah 6 (cf John 12:38-42)...now why are we having this discussion? ;-)
To deny Christ of His deity is blasphemy. |
|  2007/10/27 0:22 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Nile,
After reading this thread last night, I went to bed with this thread heavily on my mind. Suddenly a few things became clear to me.
Many people have worked hard to dissuade you from your belief that Jesus is not divine. You have frequently said how your belief in this doctrine happened quite suddenly. This is highly unusual UNLESS you are guilty of sin. Only sin can cause a person to want to discredit Jesus for who he says he is. It appears to me you have sin in your life and this is why you work so hard to disprove Jesus.
I have been around the block a few times - I am 60 years old. One thing a person can depend on when he/she apostasies is how he/she will suddenly become so fanciful in their justification of their beliefs. They become scholars, very skilled in justifying their position, twisting scripture to suit their philosophical bent. They have systematically discarded truth and replaced it with something more to their own liking which blinds them to the realities of TRUTH. It is all self-imposed. I have personally witnessed it among people I know well. And you are no different.
Son, we beg of you to repent while there is yet time...
ginnyrose
_________________
Sandra Miller
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| | 2007/10/27 11:38 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | ginnyrose,
Thank you for your concern and your post.
Quote:
Many people have worked hard to dissuade you from your belief that Jesus is not divine.
Well, no, no one on here has done that. Only two people I have talked to have worked hard to prove me wrong, and neither of them are on this forum. One of them is now convinced the trinity is wrong and I am still discussing with the other.
Working hard to show me wrong would mean understanding what my arguments are and showing them to be wrong. Just quoting verses and spelling out the trinitarian arguments does no good; I know them all and have found them to be quite lacking. Working hard to dissuade me would mean understanding why I find them lacking.
Quote:
You have frequently said how your belief in this doctrine happened quite suddenly.
Hmm...I guess I didn't myself clear. My point was that this change in doctrine was *not* sudden. I have diligently researched and studied and continue to do so. Currently though, I see no reason to believe in the trinity. I didn't change my mind for no reason, but for many good reason.
Quote:
This is highly unusual UNLESS you are guilty of sin. Only sin can cause a person to want to discredit Jesus for who he says he is. It appears to me you have sin in your life and this is why you work so hard to disprove Jesus.
I assure you that this is not the result of sin in my life. I have no ongoing sin in my sin.
Your conclusions are baffling to me!!! Why would sin cause me to deny that Jesus is God? I don't see how it's related at all. I believe Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. I don't go beyond the scripture. And try as you might, there is nothing in the Bible that says if I do not believe Jesus is God I am damned.
Rather, the scripture says this:
"Whoever confesses that Jesus is ______, God lives in him, and he in God."
You fill in the blank. (1 John 4:15)
Quote:
One thing a person can depend on when he/she apostasies is how he/she will suddenly become so fanciful in their justification of their beliefs. They become scholars, very skilled in justifying their position, twisting scripture to suit their philosophical bent
You are right, but I am not the one twisting scripture. The scriptures are clear and plain: there is One God and One mediator between God and men, the Man Jesus Christ. One God. One Man.
Now a quiz: Many times Jesus uses the phrase, "I am." Who else in the New Testament uses these exact same words? Are they too claiming to be God? (hint: it will be hard to find the answer in a trinitarian Bible)
Matt
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/10/27 12:40 | Profile | InTheLight
Member
Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: | | Nile,
Those who wrote the Nicene Creed used the word "person" in describing the Trinity with good reason. Three Persons in existence, loving each other and communicating with each other, before all else was.
If this were not so, we would have a God who needed to create in order to love and communicate. In this scenario God would have needed the universe as much as the universe needed God. But God did not need to create to love and communicate.
Those early Christian forefathers knew this very well in A.D. 325. They didn't invent the doctrine of the Trinity, they simply stressed what the Bible has put forth. They saw that an infinite personal God who is there was the only real answer to the metaphysical problem of existence.
Because God has told us about Himself - that He is the infinite and personal Triune God - we have the [i]only[/i] answer to existence. He has spoken and told us what He is and that He existed before all else, and so we have the answer to the existence of what is.
In Christ,
Ron
_________________
Ron Halverson
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| | 2007/10/27 12:43 | Profile |
| | Re: | | 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
[b][u]THE STATEMENT OF FAITH OF THE SERMONINDEX WEBSITE[/u]
That the Bible (66 books) is the inspired and infallible Word of God, the sole and sufficient guide for our life on earth.
[i]That there is one God eternally existent in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
In the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, His humanity, His perfectly sinless life, His substitutionary death as an atonement for our sins, His bodily resurrection, His ascension to the Father, and His personal return to the earth for His saints.[/i]
That all human beings are dead in sin and utterly lost and that the only way their sins can be forgiven is through repentance and through faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a person is born again to be a child of God.
That justification is by faith in Christ alone, the evidence of this being good works that glorify God.
In baptism in water, by immersion, after regeneration, in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
In the necessity of being filled with the Holy Spirit continually in order to have power to be witnesses for Christ - by life and by word.
In the resurrection of the righteous to eternal life and the resurrection of the unrighteous to eternal damnation.[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16222&forum=16&0
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine.
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. |
| | 2007/10/27 14:26 | |
| | Re: Part answer to Nile | | I said Quote:
Third I doubt the idea that this was the result of Hellenistic thought. Surely this counterpoint of many levels of meaning, many levels of revelation, many levels of understanding is characteristic of Hebrew, not Hellenistic thought? Also, being comfortable with paradox - such as two apparently oppposing things both being true, is surely not characteristic of the neat Greek methods of reasoning?
I'm open to correction on this point, because of not having much knowledge of Hellenistic thought, but it doesn't sound Hellenistic to me! Please explain why you think it is...
Nile said Quote:
It's just plain straight up Gnostic. Jesus [i]couldn't[/i] just be a man, for men have bodies and their bodies are evil.
Gnosticism [i]is[/i] part of Hellenistic thought isnt it? So, for the reason you mention, that "our bodies are evil", no Gnostic would be able to accept that "the Word became flesh".
So does this mean [i]you[/i] are a Gnostic? :-? Gnostics would find the idea of God becoming literal flesh and blood disgusting let alone suffering a painful and humiliating death!
Maybe that's why John speaks of Jesus in terms of the Logos a familiar concept to most of his readers - which he makes use of to introduce a very different concept. Its the same tactic that Paul uses when he speaks to the Greeks of the Unknown God. John is saying to his Gnostic, or Gnostic-influenced, readers, You thought you knew what the Logos was, this mystical entity, this divine Wisdom. Guess what! We know Him the true Logos, the true Light! And He became flesh, he became a man we saw Him, we knew Him, we walked with Him!
The concept of the Word and Wisdom being in some sense a person, is also found in Hebrew thought. Especially in Proverbs 8, (the fact that Wisdom is spoken of as "she" in the KJV is because the word "wisdom" happens to be a feminine noun, and also fits in as the opposite of the "strange woman" that Proverbs warns about) but it is obvious that it is also a reference to the Lord Jesus.
No-one taught me that Proverbs 8 referred to Jesus, I never heard any sermons or read anything about it. I just came across the passage, as a new Christian, and it was so obvious and so wonderful! I've never forgotten the thrill as the Lord began to open my understanding to see Him in the OT scriptures, (that was one of many occasions) just as He did for the two on the Emmaus Road after the Resurrection!
And no-one taught me about His deity either. If I had, when a young Christian, read the stuff you have read I might have doubted it too. But, before that could happen, the Lord brought me to worship Him in the meaning of the English word worship, not in the other meanings you speak of (I [i]was[/i] already aware of them, (you seem to despise "Trinitarians" as foolish) which is why the word "worship" in the Bible has to be read in context to be properly interpreted). The worship was instinctive, not a matter of creed or doctrine.
Re Greek and Hebrew thought - 1Corinthians 1 is relevant:
[color=990000] 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 [i][u]For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness[/u][/i];
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.[/color]
Greeks couldnt accept Jesus because He didnt fit into their philosophy. How foolish to think that someone executed by the Romans as a common criminal could be anything but an ordinary man? Greek gods were capable of death and rebirth, (usually with a little help from a lover) but not like that. What a ridiculous idea! Still less could He be the divine Logos itself. What an absolutely disgusting idea!
Jews couldnt accept Him, because how could the conquering Messiah die the one who would come to save his people? And [i]such[/i] a cursed, shameful death!!! The OT says cursed is the one who hangs on a tree. How could someone who their own scriptures said was cursed by God be the Messiah let alone God Himself in human form? Even more shocking, how could [i][u]God[/u][/i] die? The very thought would be utter blasphemy to them!
And, unlike you, they [i][u]did[/u][/i] understand that Jesus claimed equality with God.
Im not sure if you are reacting like a Jew or a Greek but you sure arent thinking like a believer!
[color=990000][b][i]"But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."[/i][/b][/color]
Hallelujah!!!
Jeannette
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| | 2007/10/27 16:33 | | Scribe75
Member
Joined: 2007/10/26
Posts: 13
Naperville Il
| | Re: | | Quote:
Now a quiz: Many times Jesus uses the phrase, "I am." Who else in the New Testament uses these exact same words? Are they too claiming to be God? (hint: it will be hard to find the answer in a trinitarian Bible)
Why would a man of your intellectual stature use this strawman argument...this is a classic case of reductio ad absurdum?
The utilization of the phraseology "I Am" is used in such a way that it denotes equality with God. For example:
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This staement makes no grammatical sense to the gentile mind, but the jews immediately drew the inference back to Exodus 3-Christ was claiming to be the voice of the burning bush, and I know this by the fact that the Jews tried to stone Him (stoning someone was permitted for blasphemy).
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. |
| | 2007/10/27 18:55 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Scribe75 wrote:
Quote:
Now a quiz: Many times Jesus uses the phrase, "I am." Who else in the New Testament uses these exact same words? Are they too claiming to be God? (hint: it will be hard to find the answer in a trinitarian Bible)
Why would a man of your intellectual stature use this strawman argument...this is a classic case of reductio ad absurdum?
The utilization of the phraseology "I Am" is used in such a way that it denotes equality with God. For example:
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This staement makes no grammatical sense to the gentile mind, but the jews immediately drew the inference back to Exodus 3-Christ was claiming to be the voice of the burning bush, and I know this by the fact that the Jews tried to stone Him (stoning someone was permitted for blasphemy).
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Good point, Scribe. Another example of the importance of context (as I mentioned re the word "worship").
Nile, you must really think all "trinitarians" are really ignorant to use that argument. "I am" is used in many places in many contexts (in the OT as well, if I remember correctly). The point is that when Jesus used it in this context of saying "I AM, [b]all his (Jewish) hearers understood perfectly well what He was claiming[/b].
Another example is when those who came to arrest Him went backwards and fell down when He said "I am". Even though the [i]words[/i] - at least in the Greek - are just the ordinary words acknowledging "That's me!" their reaction shows much more. Maybe they were being given a last warning of the terrible thing they were about to become part of, as the spiritual power of God came booming through the utterance "I AM!!!"
Another example, on similar lines of claiming equality with God, is when Jesus said, in John 5:17
[color=990000]My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.[/color]
The Jewish tradition ws that when God finished the work of Creation, He rested from creating, (Sabbath means cessation of whatever you've been doing); but that He continued to work, keeping the universe going, healing and restoring.
So Jesus was claiming to be continuing to do [i]that[/i] work together with the Father.
Nile you have been absorbing deadly poison in the things you've been reading. Spit it out before it kills your soul!
In Him
Jeannette |
| | 2007/10/28 6:42 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Divinity | | Quote:
So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.
[i]As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?[/i] Joh 10:15-20
[i]Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[/i] Joh 5:18
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[i]Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.[/i] Joh 14:8-12
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Quote:
Only two people I have talked to have worked hard to prove me wrong, and neither of them are on this forum.
You forget that the onus is upon you, not the other way around, it was yourself that brought all this forward. Nonetheless you are finding yourself up against it by way of dismissing the very divinity of the Lord.
[i]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no [u]life[/u] in you.[/i] Joh 6:53
Joh 1:4 In him was [b]life[/b]; and the life was the light of men.
[i]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath [u]eternal life[/u]; and [b]I[/b] will raise him up at the last day.[/i] Joh 6:54
[i][b]I[/b][/i]
[i]He that eateth [b]my[/b] flesh, and drinketh [b]my[/b] blood, dwelleth in [b]me[/b], and [b]I[/b] in him.[/i] Joh 6:56
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If [b]I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.[/b]
Joh 15:3 Now ye are [b]clean through[/b] the word which I have spoken unto you.
[i] As the living Father hath sent me, and [b]I live by the Father[/b]: so he that eateth [b]me[/b], even he shall live by [b]me[/b].[/i] Joh 6:57
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[i][b]This is[/b] that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of [b]this bread[/b] shall [u]live[/u] for ever.[/i] Joh 6:58
And if the [b]Spirit[/b] of the [b]one[/b] who raised [b]Jesus[/b] from the dead is [b]living in you[/b], then the [b]one[/b] who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by [b]his Spirit[/b] who lives in you. Rom 8:11
(Do what you will, but here is the doctrine presented in it's fullness, all are represented)
[i]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that [b]I speak[/b] unto you, they are [b]spirit[/b], and they are [b]life[/b].[/i] Joh 6:63
1Co 3:16 You know that you are God's sanctuary and that God's Spirit lives in you, don't you?
Don't you?
If you have no divinity living in you than you are not part of Him.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the [b]Spirit of God[/b] dwell in you. Now if any man have [b]not the Spirit of Christ[/b], he is none of [b]his[/b].
(Again the fullness of the Godhead)
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Col 2:9 [b]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily[/b].
The charge of blasphemy is not without merit here, in fact something to seriously consider ...
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Might this very well be it? (Edit: That is if one were to hold to it ... Joh 17:6, 1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) )
Brother, if it is possible, put this away for a season, put away all your links and arguments and these notions that someone else so well put it ... That by being so immersed in it you cannot see nor hear nor listen to those who love you. I do not belive it is 'our' argument per se and for my part am certainly not coming from the point of a notion that has long been accepted without question rather, what sayeth the scriptures?
Consider.
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2007/10/28 14:55 | Profile | jimp
Member
Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481
| | Re: | | hi, when Jesus said before abraham was I am....He used the most holy term for a jew to use. so holy it is forbidden,unless it is the truth. either Jesus should be stoned and go to hell or He is God. jimp heb.1 God who at sundry times and diverse mannerspoke...by prophets...in these last days has sokento us by son.Jesus is and always was the language of the father...the Word |
| | 2007/10/28 19:26 | Profile |
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