| Poster | Thread | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Corey,
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Now, the best scripture for your argument is the story of the rich young ruler who called Jesus "good master".
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (MATT 19:17, MARK 10:18, LUKE 18:19)
This is also the best scripture against Unitarianism. Why? Because it could just as well be a challenge to the man, in effect, "Did you just recognize me as God?"
That's interesting, I haven't encountered that argument before. It does seem to weigh in heavily for the non-trinitarians. Your interpretation is a fine interpretation too. Remember: it's not who can explain a passage, it's what explanation is most coherent with all of scripture.
There are many many arguments against the trinity though...
[url=http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=30]here are 100 for example[/url].
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Nile, I'll posit a few questions to you. You can answer them in your own time, in your own way (ie, you don't need to answer them here):
Thank you. I'll answer them here if it's arlgiht.
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1. Of all creatures in heaven and earth, was Man alone made in the image and likeness of God?
I have always believed so. It may not be true though; this is something on my list of things to investigate. It may be that the angels were made in the image of God also. I'm not sure, but I do know that at least man is made in the image of God.
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2. If Man was made in God's likeness, is it not logical for God to be able to become a human, or inhabit a human body (much as a hand fits in the glove designed to cover it)?
It is possible for God to come into a human body, sure. It is not possible for God to become a man in every way though. To become a man would mean to stop being God.
-No man has ever existed before he was born (Jesus didn't either)
-No man has ever been omniscient (Jesus clearly wasn't)
-No man has ever been un-begotten (Jesus was begotten)
-No man has ever been all powerful (Jesus wasn't - God did miracles through Jesus)
-God cannot be tempted (Jesus was)
-God cannot die (Jesus died)
So no, God cannot become a man as the trinitarians say. God could put on a human body and pretend to be a man, but He could never only be a man.
What God can do is birth a Son into the world, and raise His Son in His manifold wisdom, teaching Him all His ways. God could train His Son and teach Him obedience, wisdom, and holiness so that His Son was the perfect image and reflection of His Father.
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3. If you affirm the first two questions, is there any man in recorded history who was more wonderous, otherly, divine, or perfect than Jesus Christ?
I agree, there is no one like Jesus! He is unique! But He is not God - He is God's Son.
Corey, have you read any of the links I gave?
Matt
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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|  2007/10/23 10:51 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: biblical unitarianism | | Just a short post here to say I agree and support Nile in his beliefs.
Many are questioning the dogmas formulated in the Roman church and are finding them not biblical, but based on the Hellenized philosophies of the time.
It is time to restore the absolute Oneness of our Creator God - Immortal and not found in the likeness of man.
Jesus demonstrated absolute obedience to His Father and our Father, and by so doing overcame sin and became the second Adam, the one whom we are to emulate and follow as He leads us into the Kingdom of His God and our God.
HalleluYah!
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| | 2007/10/23 12:27 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Would you guys like to Disprove that Jesus was the Creator?
Also, if you keep linking to Sites Nile - then what good will that do - because we could list a 1,000 sites also - don't ya see where this will end up - if we all do that?
But your 100 reason thing may help a Oneness person though. :-?
That's why I like Scripture Only in debates.
This was the First debate I was Forced into when I first got a computer, coincidently, so I've found from months to years of debating, that Scripture Only is the Only way that works.
Bless you and praying for you both, that Immanuel will show you HIMSELF.
Love.
Annie |
| | 2007/10/23 13:48 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
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1. Of all creatures in heaven and earth, was Man alone made in the image and likeness of God?
I have always believed so. It may not be true though; this is something on my list of things to investigate. It may be that the angels were made in the image of God also. I'm not sure, but I do know that at least man is made in the image of God.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (GEN 1:26-27)
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2. If Man was made in God's likeness, is it not logical for God to be able to become a human, or inhabit a human body (much as a hand fits in the glove designed to cover it)?
It is not possible for God to become a man in every way though. To become a man would mean to stop being God.
So there are some things the omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God Almighty, Creator of Heavens and Earth, cannot do? The Lord cannot be man and God - even though he's omnipotent?
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3. If you affirm the first two questions, is there any man in recorded history who was more wonderous, otherly, divine, or perfect than Jesus Christ?
I agree, there is no one like Jesus! He is unique! But He is not God - He is God's Son.
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, pages 40-41. |
| | 2007/10/23 14:04 | | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
So there are some things the omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent God Almighty, Creator of Heavens and Earth, cannot do? The Lord cannot be man and God - even though he's omnipotent?
There are absolutely things God cannot do.
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C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, pages 40-41.
You didn't just quote C.S. Lewis did you :-/
Nevertheless, the argument isn't relevant. It doesn't even address the possibility of Jesus being a man [i]who is[/i] the Son of God.
Matt
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/10/23 14:29 | Profile | Nile
Member
Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Jesus demonstrated absolute obedience to His Father and our Father, and by so doing overcame sin and became the second Adam, the one whom we are to emulate and follow as He leads us into the Kingdom of His God and our God.
HalleluYah!
Amen!
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Also, if you keep linking to Sites Nile - then what good will that do - because we could list a 1,000 sites also - don't ya see where this will end up - if we all do that?
Well, I read links that other people post to me. I don't see the need to regurgitate all of the information that's all ready there. If you find articles that refute the ones I've given, I would be more than happy to read them. But you'd have to know what the artciles say first to know if it refutes them! I'm telling you that I know what the trinitarian arguments are - and that these links refute them!
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Would you guys like to Disprove that Jesus was the Creator?
That's not hard. It is easy to show that John 1:3 isn't talking about Jesus. It is talking about the actual word of God. Who woud have thought? Compare Hebrews 1:2 with Hebrews 2:5. It isn't talking about the whole world but the messianic age (that's what the word translated as "world" actually means). Same with the other verses talking about Jesus laying the foundations of the world (very easy to see, as He surely has laid the foundations of this messianic age). I don't think going on like this helps though. I posted the links so that people could search it out for themselves. If you say, "What about John 17 and the glory Jesus had before the world?" Then I have an answer yes, but you can click on the link and find out what it is before you ask me.
If you don't want to click a link though, here is something to read:
John 8: 58 "I AM "
You are not fifty years old," the Jews said to him, and you have seen Abraham! "I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am.
You have to look at the subject matter in this paragraph, which is Jesus age, not deity. The Jews are asking Jesus how can he know Abraham if he is not even fifty years old. Jesus tells them that before Abraham was born, I am. What Jesus is saying is that he is the one spoken of in the prophetic writings, long before Abrahams time.
Let's look at the verse that started this whole misunderstanding so we can see what Jesus is referring to. John 8: 56 says:
"Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
Compare this verse with Hebrews 11: 13 which is talking about Abraham and his descendants. It states:
"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw it and welcomed it from a distance."
What Abraham saw was the fulfillment of Gods promise that the savior would be his descendant (Genesis12:3), and that line of descent started with their son Isaac. That is why it says "they saw it and welcomed it from a distance." The Jews misunderstood what Jesus meant at John 8: 56 and made it an issue of Jesus age, at which Jesus tried to correct them once again by saying, "Before Abraham was born, I am" (The Messiah). Jesus is saying that before Abraham was even born, God had already planned him as the Messiah in His mind.
1 Peter 1: 20 says:
"He was known before the foundation of the world."
Remember John 1: 1, "In the beginning was the word" (plan). Also, if you look at a Greek Bible, the two words for I am are the exact two words used for I am in John 8: 12 and John 8: 24. In John 8: 12 Jesus says:
"I am the light of the world."
In John 8: 24 Jesus says:
"For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
John 8: 24 is the continuation of John 8:12. The first I am is obviously referring to Jesus being the light of the world. The second I am is referring to Jesus being the light of the world, the Son of God. These are the exact same words used in John 8:58, yet, no one has taken them to mean that Jesus was claiming to be God. As a matter of fact, the KJV translates the Greek I am in John 8:24 as, "I am he." In John 4:26, again, the same exact two words are used as in John 8: 58. The Samaritan woman has just said to Jesus,
"I know that the Messiah is coming, the one called the Anointed; when he comes, he will tell us everything."
Jesus says to her, (the actual Greek translation)
"I am, the one speaking to thee. "
He is who? The Messiah that is coming. The KJV and NIV translate this verse as "I that speak unto thee am he" and "I who speak to you am he." The I am here is referring to Jesus being the Messiah.
Mark 6:50 is about when Jesus walks on the water towards the disciples who are on a boat, and they think that they are seeing a ghost. The actual Greek reads, "Be of good cheer, I am; be ye not afraid. " The KJV and NIV translate this verse as,
"be of good cheer: It is I; be not afraid " and "Take courage! It is I. Dont be afraid."
None of these I am are taken to mean that Jesus is God. As a matter of fact, they are translated in a variety of different ways, such as, "It is I" and "I am he." The beggar in John 9:9 when asked if he is the one who used to sit and beg answers them by saying the exact same words, "I am." Does that mean that the beggar is claiming to be God? Of course not!
So why do people claim that the John 8:58 I am is referring to the Exodus 3:14 I AM? Because of human tradition, trying to make Scripture fit their thought, instead of the other way around. It is the same exact I am as in the rest of these verses and the topic is obviously not Jesus deity. If the John 8:58 I am refers to the Exodus 3:14 I AM, then the rest of the other I am should also. But they DONT.
_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz
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| | 2007/10/23 15:20 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
wildbranch wrote:
Just a short post here to say I agree and support Nile in his beliefs.
Many are questioning the dogmas formulated in the Roman church and are finding them not biblical, but based on the Hellenized philosophies of the time.
It is time to restore the absolute Oneness of our Creator God - Immortal and not found in the likeness of man.
Jesus demonstrated absolute obedience to His Father and our Father, and by so doing overcame sin and became the second Adam, the one whom we are to emulate and follow as He leads us into the Kingdom of His God and our God.
HalleluYah!
Hi
I haven't time, nor maybe inclination, to respond very fully to this thread, and am far behind even in reading it. However, just one or two thoughts.
[u]First[/u]: If unitarianism means saying that Jesus is [u][i]not[/i][/u] God or that the Father or the Spirit are [u][i]not[/i][/u] God, then it isn't Biblical!
But if it means saying that God is [u][i]One[/i][/u], then it [i][u]is[/u][/i] Biblical.
[u]Second[/u]: I don't understand why you think that that the Catholic Church [i]invented[/i] the idea of the Trinity. There are many false teachings in the RC Church, but you can't use this fact to prove all their teachings wrong! Whoever first formulated the doctrine, as a doctrine, doesn't matter in the slightest, so why keep talking about it as if it did?
Also, have you put forward any proper historical evidence, from impartial sources, that this is correct.
Not that it would make any difference, but it would be nice to have documentation.
[u]Third[/u] I doubt the idea that this was the result of Hellenistic thought. Surely this counterpoint of many levels of meaning, many levels of revelation, many levels of understanding is characteristic of Hebrew, not Hellenistic thought? Also, being comfortable with paradox - such as two apparently oppposing things both being true, is surely not characteristic of the neat Greek methods of reasoning?
I'm open to correction on this point, because of not having much knowledge of Hellenistic thought, but it doesn't sound Hellenistic to me! Please explain why you think it is...
[u]Forth[/u], I expect (without reading all the posts), that the fact that Jesus was subordinate to the Father is [i]assumed[/i] to mean that He is inferior in nature?
This is a common fallacy, a result of thinking that a person's role (God is a Person too, of course) is the same as their intrinsic nature. Jesus' subordination to the Father proves nothing of His nature (what He is in Himself) any more than my obedience to my boss in work means I'm somehow [i]inferior[/i] to my boss.
I could enlarge on this point - maybe another time, or another thread...
[u]Fifth[/u] The Bible makes it clear that God is God, and that He is One in nature, in purpose, in character, in personality.
And yet Jesus is spoken of, or speaks of Himself, in many places as if He is God, while remaining obedient and subordinate (NOT inferior) to the Father. He accepts worship, He uses titles that are only used by God. For example, the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, in Revelation (quoting Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12, which are - especially the first - clearly God Himself speaking).
The Holy Spirit is also shown in Scripture as having the characteristics of God Himself. In John's Gospel, even though the word for Spirit is neuter, masculine parts of speech (against the rules of Greek grammar) are sometimes used to emphasise the fact that He is a Person, One like Jesus, who is like God...
Yours in Him
Jeannette |
| | 2007/10/24 18:14 | | Lkid
Member
Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109
| | Re: | | Matt,
Have you joined a Christadelphian group?
Just a question regardless. Jesus reproved the Pharisees saying
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have eternal life." John 5
Who gives eternal life Matt? Is it obtained by a life of obedience? Jesus said that He gives it. Have you gone to Him to have eternal life or are you going to have a go at it yourself. I pray that you would do it immediately.
On another note to everyone. Muslims claim that the true knowledge of the true scriptures comes from the original writings in the original language. Otherwise you can't understand it properly and must have it taught to you. Is that the way with God? Is God's Mighty Right Hand only Mighty to those who study greek and Hebrew and know the history of the early church? Or is God Mighty enough that He can save english people by HIS WORD alone. Was God on holidays when Tyndale or whoever it was wrote the english bible? Or maybe He thought that english would never amount to much of an international language.
Matt, I suggest you look at your english bible, whichever version you got, and read the whole thing and don't talk to us for a few months until you've reread it, in english. Where it says that Jesus is man, understand it to mean man, where it says He is the Blessed God forever, understand it as that. Let the Holy Spirit do the interpreting and reconciling of the various texts.
In Christ,
Lloyd
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| | 2007/10/25 3:27 | Profile | MikeH
Member
Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116
| | Re: | | Nile wrote Quote:
Two weeks and a half weeks ago I first heard of non-trinitarianism. After a week (and enough reading to be a full-time job) I was convinced. I read articles and arguments till I had read everything I could think of and had looked at every verse I (or my friends) could think of. Since then, I have been the scripture only and am becoming convinced more each day that Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son.
So you could say I stopped believing in the Deity of Christ about a week and a half ago.
Yes that is correct, I do not believe Jesus was Creator God come in the flesh.
So it took you a week to abandon a key doctrine of the Christian faith? And another week and a half to start preaching it. I won't enter the fray on the doctrine, as I doubt that I would be any more successful than others at convincing you. However, I would question such a dramatic change of mind in such a short space of time, and furthermore, that you so boldly proclaim your new found position. My experience is that I have occasionally 'discovered' wonderful new doctrines, but it only takes a little while to realise their source, as the primary appeal is to my pride, not the edification of the body. I have changed my view on a particular doctrine, though not half as important as this one, but it took me 10 years to get there. Of course, you could just say that I am slow :-)
Paul wrote the following verse for a good reason; we come across all sorts of doctrines, but sudden change is not a good thing. [color=009900]Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;[/color] If you believe something has merit, it is worth holding it in your heart and considering it carefully for a long, long time; a week is way to short to abandon the deity of Christ; the risk with preaching (as you are doing) is so high; if one is wrong, you are insulting Him and misleading many, many others; one needs a really long time to be sure that you are in any way close to the truth.
You may refer to Saul's change on the Damascas Road, but I would remind you that was a very different experience from an intellectual study of other's writings and the bible as you have pursued. He had already heard Stephen's testimony, but it did not divert him from his pursuit at all!
Much love
Mike |
| | 2007/10/25 6:46 | Profile | wildbranch
Member
Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 138
| | Re: | | I posted this in another thread, but it is worth repeating here:
The silence of the New Testament and the apostles is indeed a living accusation and witness against any notion of a three person make-up of the Living God of Israel.
Not one of the apostles felt the need to address this megashift in the unshakable Hebraic/Jewish understanding of pure monotheism. A monotheism based on the celebrated Deut 6:4: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord". This understanding was given to them by God Himself: "But the Lord has taken you, and brought you out of the iron furnace, from Egypt, to be a people for HIs own possession as today...To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD, He is God: there is no other besides Him: Deut 4.20, 35. The original reading would be: ..."YHWH, He is God: there is no other besides Him".
These early Jewish believers on the long awaited Messiah (the first assemblies of believers were almost entirely Jewish for about the first 10yrs), these believers on the Messiah of Israel, who held with unrelenting tenacity to the belief in the One God of Israel, are now said to have their entire theology rocked - without raising a question, a debate, an uproar? Suddenly they are purported to understand that The Eternal, Immortal, AlmightyGod, Creator of the Universe was actually the man Jesus, and Mary was the mother of God, and the Spirit of the Father (the Breath, Wind , Ruach of God), was actually a 3rd person, a ghost.
Deut.18:15 is a prophecy about the one to come, as Moses said: "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brethren. Him you shall hear......verse 18: I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him". This is Jesus, the perfect man, obedient and true, who later laid down his life for his brethren.
Peace |
| | 2007/10/25 8:20 | Profile |
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