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| Re: | | Hia Matt. I read your link, but I must ask now - than Who is this ....
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Brother Kerrigan left a good post also.
Love to you in Christ Jesus. Annie |
| 2007/10/22 21:18 | | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | Hey Kerrigan,
I have some writings of the early fathers and see nothing of the trinity. Perhaps you could show me some that speak of the trinity? The earlier the better, like before 150 A.D. I think the doctrine of the trinity arose quickly because of the influence of Greek platonic influence.
I read skimmed the history of the church article you gave and see nothing of the trinity by early fathers. Rather, I see evidence against the trinity.
The "I AM" sayings of Jesus are very un-impressive to me. Other people in the NT said "I AM" in the same exact words Jesus did, yet no one thought they were God. Farther more, Jesus never said, "I am that I am."
Kerrigan, where am I commanded to believe that Jesus is God? Which commandment do I break? I believe He is the Son of God as the Old Testament says, as the gospels say, and as Paul teaches.
Brother, I very much wish you and other s to read some of these things I have read. Right now I'm not concerned with convincing you but just that someone would read what I've read! No one will ever convince me unless they first understand what convinced me in the first place. Then I could be convinced if I what convinced me is shown wrong.
I will read the links you gave when I have some time, thank you for them. Matt _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/10/22 21:20 | Profile | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
HE_Reigns wrote: Hia Matt. I read your link, but I must ask now - than Who is this ....
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Brother Kerrigan left a good post also.
Love to you in Christ Jesus. Annie
It is Jesus :-)
Now I ask, who is this "word of God"? 2 Timothy 2:8-9 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
Who is this "word of God"? Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
Probably most important, who is this "word of God"? 2 Peter 3:5-6 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
My point is that yes, Jesus is clearly called the Word of God, but every time the Bible says, "word" or "word of God" you can't simply substitute Jesus.
Matt _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/10/22 21:27 | Profile |
| Re: | | Yes, He is Jesus Coming back to earth in that chapter. You got His Name right. :-D
The thing is Matt - keep reading from there unto the end of chpt 22.
Those 4 chpt.s say it all.
His Love to you. Always. |
| 2007/10/22 21:31 | | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
HE_Reigns wrote: Yes, He is Jesus Coming back to earth in that chapter. You got His Name right. :-D
The thing is Matt - keep reading from there unto the end of chpt 22.
Those 4 chpt.s say it all.
His Love to you. Always.
I will read it tomorrow morning :-) _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/10/22 21:58 | Profile | RevKerrigan Member
Joined: 2006/4/13 Posts: 58 South Central Kentucky
| Re: | | Hey Matt, you can check out all the quotes that I am about to type out in David Bercot's [i]Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs[/i]. By the way David Bercot used to be a JW.
[b]Athenagoras (c.175):[/b] "Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men called atheists who speak of God the Father, and of GOD THE SON, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare bother their power in union and their distinction in order?"
"Christian know God and HIS LOGOS. They also know what type of oneness the Son has with the Father and what type of communion the Father has with the Son. Furthermore, they know what the Spirit is and what the unity is of THESE THREE: the Spirit, the Son and the Father. They also know what their distinction is in unity."
"We acknowledge a God, and a Son (HIS LOGOS), and a Holy Spirit. These are UNITED IN ESSENCE- the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Now, the Son is the Intelligence, Reason and Wisdom of the Father. And the Spirit is an emanation, as light from the fire."
[b]Theophilus (c. 180):[/b] "The three days which were before the luminaries are types of the TRIAD GOD, His WORD and His Wisdom."
[b]Irenaeus (c.180):[/b] "One God the Father is declared, who is above all, through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ. But the WORD is through all things and is Himself the Head of the Church. While the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water."
"I have also largely demonstrated that the WORD, NAMELY THE SON, was always with the Father."
[b]Clement of Alexandria (c. 195):[/b] "Thank the one only Father and Son, Son and Father. The Son is the Instructor and Teacher, along with the Holy Spirit. They are all in One, in whom is all, for whom all is One, for whom is eternity."
[b]Tertullian (c.198):[/b] "We pray at a minimum not less than three times in a day. For we are debtors to Three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
"For the very Church itself is-properly and principally-the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of ONE DIVINITY: Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
"I testify that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other...My assertion is that the Father is one, the Son is one and the Spirit is one-and that they are all distinct from each other...The Father is not the same as the Son, for they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: 'My Father is greater than I.'"
"However, that there are two Gods or two Lords, is a statement that at no time proceeds out of our mouths. Not as if it were untrue that the Father is God, the SON IS GOD and the Holy Spirit is God, and EACH IS GOD...Now, if there were found in the Scriptures but one Personality of Him who is God and Lord, Christ would justly enough be inadmissible to the title of God and Lord. For there was declared to be none other than ONE GOD and ONE LORD."
"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, distinct from one another. These Three are on in essence-not one in Person. For it is said, 'I and my Father are One,' in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number."
[b]Hippolytus (c. 205):[/b] "Therefor a man...is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God- who, BEING GOD, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject (Himself excepted)-and the Holy Spirit; and that these are three [Persons]. However, if he desires to know how it is shown there there is still one God, let him know that His power is one. But as far as regards the Economy, there is a threefold manifestation."
[b]Cyprian (c. 250):[/b] "'Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.' He suggests the TRINITY, in who sacrament the nations were to be baptized."
"If a person baptized by heretics were sanctified, he would also be made the temple of God. I ask, 'of what God?' If of the Creator, he could not be. For he has not believed in Him. If of Christ, he could not become His temple, SINCE HE DENIES THAT CHRIST IS GOD. If of the Holy Spirit, how can the Holy Spirit be at peace with him who is the enemy either of the Son or the Father. For the THREE ARE ONE."
"The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one.' And, again, it is written of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: 'And these three are ONE.'"
I think that should be enough for now...but there are tons more quotes brother. Please do some more research and not be settled with your conclusions EVEN AFTER 60 hours. I kind of say that sarcastically brother, as if 60 hours were enough to do away with the Trinity and the Deity of Christ! :-( _________________ Kerrigan Skelly
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| 2007/10/22 22:05 | Profile | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | Kerrigan,
Yes, I see the trinity emerging in those quotes. I think the deception had already by that time though. John himself said: " For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh."
What about the earlier fathers though?
Nothing I have read of them seems to suggest the trinity. The quotes that are claimed to be suggesting do not...they only appear to because of misunderstandings of John 1:1 and the manner in which Jesus is the Son of God.
Quote:
Please do some more research and not be settled with your conclusions EVEN AFTER 60 hours. I kind of say that sarcastically brother, as if 60 hours were enough to do away with the Trinity and the Deity of Christ!
Yes, I only mention the hours so people realize that this is not a whim. I will do more research. What about you? Do you know what you arguments against the trinity are? And not the JW and Mormon arguments, the Biblical Unitarian arguments? Remember, I have believed in the trinity my whole life. One month ago I debated a Muslim on the trinity using the same arguments everyone else does. I talked about John 1:1, Thomas worshiping Jesus, Jesus saying "I Am", Jesus creating the world, Jesus being worshiped, Jesus saying He is the First and Last, saying, "I and the Father are One", etc. What could have caused me in less than two weeks (I have considered other doctrines much longer) to believe other wise? What were the arguments?!?!?
Matt _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/10/22 22:45 | Profile |
| Re: | | Hia brother. I prefer just using His Word, but I'll throw these in just for you. :-)
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle. "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr. "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Brother, again, we're living in some very strange days. Folks who used to believe one thing about His return, suddenly believe Preterism or Dominionism or Contemplative Prayer or you name it --- these things are happening faster than some of us can keep up with.
It's not just you, as I said before, the enemy has gone bonkers because he knows his time is short.
He's hitting ALL of us in ways we don't even recognise unless some other brother shows us or the Lord Himself speaks.
It's those "perilous times" in the sense of falling away from the truth and losing love, just like Jesus said would happen first.
Hang in there with us brother and please, read those four last chpt.s of Revelation.
Let's all just pray for each other, because each one of us has a weak point and all have a common enemy who would take any one of us down if he could.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault/error, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. |
| 2007/10/22 23:13 | | Nile Member
Joined: 2007/3/28 Posts: 403 Raleigh, NC
| Re: | | First, I must say that mentioned the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all in one sentence says nothing about them being a trinity.
I will post one quote of my own, then I need to go to bed. It might be a few days before I can post again.
[i]Now, from this one passage of the epistle of the inspired apostle, we have been already able to show that the Father and the Son are two separate Persons, not only by the mention of their separate names as Father and the Son, but also by the fact that He who delivered up the kingdom, and He to whom it is delivered up -- and in like manner, He who subjected (all things), and He to whom they were subjected -- [b]must necessarily be two different Beings[/b].[/i] -Tertullian
I found this, and other things [url=http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?s=80cfb6eef949860a60650988fd5b609e&showforum=67]here[/url]
More later. Matt _________________ Matthew Miskiewicz
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| 2007/10/22 23:58 | Profile |
| Re: | | Nile,
I just skimmed through this thread and thought I'd add my two cents - because before I was saved I was involved with a certain group that denied the deity of Jesus...
Now, the best scripture for your argument is the story of the rich young ruler who called Jesus "good master".
"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." (MATT 19:17, MARK 10:18, LUKE 18:19)
This is also the best scripture against Unitarianism. Why? Because it could just as well be a challenge to the man, in effect, "Did you just recognize me as God?"
Nile, I'll posit a few questions to you. You can answer them in your own time, in your own way (ie, you don't need to answer them here):
1. Of all creatures in heaven and earth, was Man alone made in the image and likeness of God?
2. If Man was made in God's likeness, is it not logical for God to be able to become a human, or inhabit a human body (much as a hand fits in the glove designed to cover it)?
3. If you affirm the first two questions, is there any man in recorded history who was more [i]wonderous, otherly, divine, or perfect[/i] than Jesus Christ?
I can't adequately explain the mystery of the Holy Trinity. But I can't deny the power of Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost on my life. |
| 2007/10/23 1:18 | |
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