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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : All Men Everywhere

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: All Men Everywhere

Quote:
If God is completely sovereign in salvation, and if His word does not return to Him void,



I don't know why I didn't see this earlier, providence I suppose.

Ben, you misquote that verse about God's word not returning to Him void. Here is what it says-
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: [b]it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.[/b]

Notice it will accomplish what God pleases. Thus the word preached either softens or hardens the hearts of those that hear it.

The word works God's will. To the elect it produces faith, to the non-elect it condemns and leaves God with an even longer rap sheet against them as they store up wrath against the day of wrath.

Seeing also as we are all made from the same lump of clay, the difference is not in the clay, but in the Potter and what He makes of the clay.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/24 22:42Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

I don't know why you did not include this verse first though-
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

The Son gives life to whom He will, it's His choice and not determined upon merit or works of ours.

Brother Roaringlamb, I am at work on break so I only have a min, " He gives life to whom He will" Why is that an issue? God sets the terms, no problem with that scripture for me at all. To who does God give anything? To him who is of a humble heart, to the poor in spirit, to those who sense the working of the Holy Spirit and respond (Yes i believe that the Spirit must draw a man, but the bible says When He is lifter up, He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself.)Those who respond, to those He gives life. The offer given, man to respond. No works involved, just plain recieving or rejecting. "I set before you life and death -therfore CHOOSE life!) Brother, a child can understand that! "Suffer not the children to come unto me" Come as a child - could a child ever concieve of a god who is so confusing as calvins? We can pick a scripture here and there and make it say anything! Look at the big picture, the whole bible, the workings of God. You have not answered any spicific questions in my posts that I have asked so far, well not most of them anyway. You did not address what I asked in the last post that I am responding to , but only asked another question to which I have answered. At first, i thought this was a waste of time, getting on here and getting myself frustrated, but the more I do it, the more it does two things: It is helping me see more and more how wrong calvin was, and that discussing this is helping me see the flaws in this thinking more and more clearly by the responces I read, It also shows me that others besides myself have a concern over this issue. I can't seem to find many that I know personaly that even care to discuss it on both sides. I thougt I might be wierd or something that I can't let this issur go when it comes up. I do care, I want the truth. Others are much more articulate than I, so I enjoy the discussion. It could be that all this helps some to come to seeing the whole truth. And that is my prayer, that we all come to the knowledge of the truth in love, and can keep from getting to upset with each other. But, compomise?/No way. My issue is with doctrine, not people. I hope we all can keep it that way. God bless, Bob


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Bob

 2007/10/25 10:10Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Roaringlamb, I too had this question"why do some reject salvation"

This may contribute.....Man is three parts Spirit,soul and body.
When you become born again it is your spirit that is born again.Your mind doesnt know you are born again. And your body surely doesnt know either.
This is why the word commands us to walk in the spirit.
The next time you witness to someone , make eye contact with them. As soon as you tell them about Jesus you will[99% of the time] see 'a light' come to their eyes. I believe you have touched their spirit man. Now you will most likely see their eyes gloss over. They can push their spirit man down.
I did this expeiment and was absolutely amazed that this was happening.


......David

 2007/10/25 10:35Profile
refrigbob
Member



Joined: 2007/9/12
Posts: 15
Buffalo, NY

 Re:

I also asked a previous question which was never addressed, how can someone love the God of calvin, do you? If I ask why, and you say for what he did for you, in a "way" I can see that. But there is still that bigger picture that must lurk behind the calvanist mind. Put it this way, If a stadium was full of people, and a gunnman systematicly shot each person in the head. One by one, I know this is a stretch, but just hypotheticly. Then he got to you, ("passed you by") - so in the end, a multiude is sent to there death, but you are left standing, left alive. Now in a strange sense, you would be thankful that you are alive, but could you ever love the gunmen who showed you "mercy"? Would you not always wonder what the future holds for you if you faced that individual again? Maybe next time you would be the target? I say you cannot love someone who would do this, no matter what "good" may have been shown towards you. The best you could ever do is a mechanical, fearfull, reluctant, and whatever other negitive you can name relationship. That is the god that calvin describes. Now it seems only scriptures for scriptures are answered, selectively addressed, or questions to questions. Can a calvinist please address this issue without the polished answers and from the heart. (A new heart, the one given by God to the redeemed - the one that is not desperalty wicked, because the Spirit of God dwells in it!)
God bless, Bob


_________________
Bob

 2007/10/25 12:16Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother psalm1,

I don't know if I agree with this, because the spirit is dead within man is it not? The new birth is from death to life, as the spirit is made alive.

Adam and Eve had spiritual life, but upon sinning there was death that has passed upon all men.

Isn't spiritual death the reason people perish?

Once the spirit is made alive, they are saved as they are now children of God.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/25 12:31Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I also asked a previous question which was never addressed, how can someone love the God of calvin, do you?



Quite simply, I love Him because He first loved me. If He had not loved me before, there was not anything to love once I was alive that is for sure.

Brother in your illustration, you cannot make God the gunman, nor can you say that He was killing people.

It would be more Scriptural to say that the whole stadium was full of dead people, and Someone came and gave life to some. Those who received life would love the one who gave them life, and no one could blame the one who gave life only to a few, but rather be in amazement at the fact that He gave life to any.

Again, man is not naturally inclined to desire God, that is why Paul writes, "there is none righteous.. none seek after God."

God seeks after men, He initiates, He gives life both natural and spiritual.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/25 12:40Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Roaringlamb, no we have a spirit wheather we are born again or not.
the people not written in the lambs book of life live on do they not?
therefore the triune man is spirit soul and body,
the lost mans spirit is there.....just needs rebirth[born again].......[already born once]
do you agree?


....David

 2007/10/25 13:34Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Well in one sense I can see how a man has a "spirit". For example when we say someone is "spirited" or excited.

The death that came upon all men is not just physical, but also spiritual is it not? So when a man is dead in sin, he is spiritually dead. Thus he cannot have a relationship with the true and living God who is spirit. Something must be birthed within man, and that is impossible for men to do.

The new birth allows us to have relationship with God as our Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Even in this, it is Christ's work that paves the way for us to enter into God's presence.

I believe the soul can create many "spiritual" feelings, and duties to make it seem spiritual, but apart from the true birth of the Spirit in a man he is still dead no matter what he does. This plays itself out in a multitude of ways from those who worship false deities, to those who worship themselves. But when the spirit gives birth, it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me.

Maybe I'm not understanding your view, but it seems to me that natural men must be made spiritual, and that only happens by the new birth which man cannot control or manipulate in any way, shape, or form.

By the way, blessings to you in Christ Jesus :-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/25 14:02Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

roaringlamb,when a lost person dies what part of him stands before the great white throne judgement.
It is his spirit.
Wheather lost or saved we all have an alive spirit.



....David

 2007/10/25 14:14Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
I also asked a previous question which was never addressed, how can someone love the God of calvin, do you?

Brother in your illustration, you cannot make God the gunman, nor can you say that He was killing people.

It would be more Scriptural to say that the whole stadium was full of dead people, and Someone came and gave life to some. Those who received life would love the one who gave them life, and no one could blame the one who gave life only to a few, but rather be in amazement at the fact that He gave life to any.

First of all, that "Someone who came and gave life to some" also first made them to be dead to start with by giving them the wage of sin that someone eles committed(Adam).
Therefore, you still have that "Someone came and gave life to some" killed them first then gave them back the life.

Quote:
God seeks after men, He initiates, He gives life both natural and spiritual.

He also must cause them to die by condemn it with Adam's sin when it has not yet sinned, and putting a nature on us for it to do naturaly what HE hates, and To put the indictment or a responsibility of sin that has not yet been committed and put a penalty or a price on the inocent.
Inocent being in the sence that children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him who hates some and loves some for no apperant reason.

 2007/10/25 14:45Profile





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