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patrick heaviside

"What you attribute to man's will, is nothing more than God passing over people, or withholding grace from them."

Brother, just taking this statment, deep in your heart, what do you think about it? I am not asking what your theologins say, but what do you think? Knowing the terror, the eternal punishment, the continuing torment of hell for all eternity that awaits the lost, what pleasure or love could you have towards a god like that, if it were true? Be honest and answer from your heart, not a robotic repitition.
What would you think of a man who entered a burning house, carried out one child in one arm, but purposly left the other without so much as an attempt to call him out? Now these are only temporal flames, not eternal. How can you love a god who purposly for good pleasure would withold nothing more than a call to save someone from eternal damnation? I say that is naturaly impossible.
If you realy belive that, as stated in 5 point theology, there is something at work that would allow you not to cry out as another brother said "Tyrany". We would not expect that from the worse of a man, let alone God who desires our love and worship. I know, you will say I am using human logic and feelings, and I have quoted no scripture. So many have already been quoted. I am just asking, do you realy love a god who would do that? Can you realy trust him? Does it not cause uncertainty about his character? Now this whole topic is one that has troubled me for years. I am being honest. Thoughts lijke this have plagued me over and over. Hearing this doctrine years ago, and tormented at times over it untill I was shown the truth through prayer and Gods mercy. It is still a hot spot at times, and sometimes it haunts me like a bad dream. Just what comfort can a god like this bring anyone? To what end does it bring to constantly buttress this type of God? Why don't calvanist preachers start off with this, instead of it being an "enlightened" doctrine for the advanced? Probably because if it was preached up front, there would be no converts! I do not know why I even read these posts on this topic, I would be better off leaving this one alone.
But what if God is realy like the god of calvinism? I wonder how many souls have anguished over the centuries? No one can say that their are some difficult passages, but all in all, the scriptures do not side with a god like calvins. Whatever mysteries election may hold that we do not know or understand, you cannot ignore the free will of man, the pleading to choose life, the desire of God that all men be saved. But I know I am beating a dead horse repeating scriptures that have already been stated over and over. It (calvinism)contridicts conscience, logic, and most importantly revealed scripture. The best case that can be made by this type of thinking is always presupposition and conjecture, never direct scriptures taken in full context. Yet multitudes are in scripture stating directly Gods desire for all to be saved, pleading with the lost, turning from sin, etc. You do not have to force meaning or wrench context for that argument. You must change meanings of words, ignore opposing scriptures, and do severe injustice to the texts to adhere to 5 point calvanism. This is not against any person, but it is againt the doctrine. This doctrine is damaging to many people, when it rears its head I have a problem keeping silent. But I still love the brothers! (And sisters) weather calvinists or not!
God bless, Bob

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Bob

I am new to posting on here, I just read the community rules. I may have sounded a little harsh in my two posts here, if so I ask forgiveness. I think I already made clear why I this topic pushes a button for me, but I will try to watch more carefully how I express myself in the future. God bless, Bob

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Bob

Hi Bob,

I don't think you were harsh. I was about to post a thank you for your heart's cry and how well you articulated not just concern, but torment.


In the UK, we don't have much of this brand of Calvinism.

When I read a phrase like 'election of grace', something inside me knows it is something about the person choosing to receive grace from God, rather than God's supercilious choosing of a person against their congnition... somehow forcing them into a relationship with Him which did not require their consent. By any standard, that would not be love.

A point I heard made by a preacher, once, was to do with the Lamb's book of life. The way he explained what he'd noticed in scripture, is that all names start out already there - because Jesus died for all - the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world - but, as people are born, and have the opportunity to choose Christ and eternal life, so their names either stay in the book, or are blotted out.

Made sense to me.

In Tyndale's 1534 New Testament, there are two or three places where he refers to the fellowship saints have with one another.

Tyndale was great on the love of God, and how it is by love the laws written on our hearts are interpreted. I believe this ties in with an understanding there is a third love commandment - 'Love one another'. So then, the whole population of earth was predestined to salvation, but not many receive it. Being in the minority, unity becomes a vital attribute of the church, because as He was rejected, so will we be. Nevertheless, as believers find one another and strengthen one another, such as the body of Christ is on earth, it can be effective.


I know I've roamed around a bit here, and not addressed scriptures but I have an overwhelming sense that after Peter had told the Lord to depart because he was a sinful man, and then watched in horror while He was mocked and crucified, he also had an overwhelming sense of his own unworthiness of such a Man. When the Holy Ghost came, there was a sense amongst those early believers, of how much they did not deserve such a salvation. All those animal sacrifices for over a thousand years had made them understand something about the intransigence of sin, and they knew that it was God's grace alone which had opened up a way by which they could enter into fellowship with Him.

I moot that 'such as should be saved' is a best-attempt at trying to express the wonder the apostles felt as they preached Christ crucified, and watched faith rise in some hearts who had never heard this before and who had never known personally the beauty of Jesus the Man, as they had, and by the Holy Spirit they were born again also.


Another thought (sorry I'm going on longer than I had planned) is that there is similarity in the way God set Isaiah up when he was in the Holy of Holies, by asking the question in his hearing 'Who will go for us?' (Do we really think God didn't know what was going on in Isaiah's heart? And He wanted to hear Isaiah say the equivalent of 'I will' because that's what makes a relationship.) and when He knew Adam had gone along with Eve's bright idea but still He came out calling 'Where are you?' Then 'Have you ....? (again, as if He didn't know!\) That was God helping Adam out. Instead of Adam having to put his whole confession into his own abject words, he just had to say 'yes'.... because of God's generous mercy towards [u]men[/u]. Peace on earth... goodwill. Amen.

Welcome brother, and no I do not think you have been harsh at all.

Brother no matter what someone believes about salvation, each group must face the fact that men will be lost. This is never something to be taken lightly, but it is a fact because men love darkness rather than light. Until the desire of the heart is changed, they will continue that way.

So you believe that men are lost because they "choose" to be, but God has done all He could to save them(if this is not your view, please forgive me. It seems to be the logical opposite). Thus you have a God who is weak and cannot change men's hearts apart from co-operation from man.

I believe that man is incapable of salvation apart from God's grace giving men faith to believe. Thus the problem is with man and not with God.

We need to move away from the idea that man is neutral towards God and can be swayed either for God, or against God. The natural mind is against God, and the heart is set upon only pleasing self. This does not sound like a heart that is able to swing one way or the other.

Either way, may God bless you,, and keep you.

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patrick heaviside

Quote:

""I believe that man is incapable of salvation apart from God's grace giving men faith to believe. Thus the problem is with man and not with God.""

Great statement:

That is what Grace is all about. Not necessarily for salvation, although it has a deep working in it. Grace is so God can deal with man before he believes and also after he believes and is born again. Then Grace allows God to work with man even when he messes up.

Predestination is to that effect in Grace, not the predestination of some to be saved and some not. Predestination is by Grace to the effect that God in salvation can deal with Man because he now has Jesus Christ in him, which God sees and that is how he will deal with us in Grace, because not He deals in us and to us by the Son, through the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Predestination always has to do with God dealing with us in Christ, not in our salvation as choosing some to death or some to life. Still God is dealing with man in the dispensation of Grace, meaning He can seek us, because we won't seek Him. Then when we believe what He says about His only Begotten Son, He can then birth Him in the believer.

Did Adam choose Satan or believe him?
He did not choose him but he did believe him and that is why the whole human race is in Satan until Christ came and defeated him at the Cross and provided the way we can believe The Father about the Son.

Ephesians 1:7-12 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Predestinated and Dealt with in Christ, not in salvations choice by man, but God providing the faith that we might believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

And by Christ in you the Hope of Glory, His faith brings forth the life of Christ in us.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

roaringlab wrote:

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Benjamin Williams

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patrick heaviside

I would answer that to be safe, you must turn from idols. I mean the glaring statue that poses as Christ or as Paul. Calling upon strange gods, then going about making vows, because you think you're saved. Jesus Christ has to save you through the fire of adversity, and it would be something we all would be afraid of. But fear thou not.
Mark 10 (W.Tyndale N.T) 14 When Jesus saw that, he was displeased, and said to them: Suffer the children to come unto me and forbid them not. For unto such belongeth the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a child, he shall not enter therein[url=http://www.faithofgod.net]Where the Tyndale N.T is[/url]

These have not obeyed the gospel, in that they still go blindly, following some blasphemies. Using men's commandments, and doctrines, which having a similitude of godly living, deny the power therof, such abhor.

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Terry L Merritt