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BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
Christ did in fact set captives free brother as He died for the sins of His people(Matthew 1:21). Notice His people, not all people.



1. There is no place in scripture that says the atonement of the cross was only for the saved.

2. You avoided what I said once again, and did not answer what I posted. I bring things to your attention point by point, and you avoid them point by point.

The question is simple,

Did Christ take captivity captive?

Yes, the scripture states that clearly.

Now the question is, was it physical captivity, or spiritual captivity?

The answer once again is obvious, spiritual captivity.

If Christ led spiritual captivity captive, who was it for?

The answer is obvious in Isaiah, it was for the captives.

Who are the captives?

The answer is obvious, anyone in captivity.
------------------------------------------------------

But, you do not see because you are blinded by doctrinal statements.

And you do not answer my questions, because you do not know the answers.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/23 14:24Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
1. There is no place in scripture that says the atonement of the cross was only for the saved.



Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is [b]shed for many[/b] for the remission of sins.

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, [b]This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.[/b]

These line up pretty well with this-
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify [b]many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

We know that if not all men are saved, then not all men's iniquities have been borne by Christ. If they were, they would be forgiven, and would be saved. Salvation has very little to do with man at all, and all to do with His grace and mercy. That God would save a single soul is amazing, and even if I was not that souls that was saved, God would be completely without blame because man is sinful, and without God's remarkable grace in giving His Son there would be no hope for any.

I cannot understand why you accuse God of unfairness when he does not save all men rather than praising Him for saving any people at all.

Quote:
The answer is obvious, anyone in captivity.



And only those who have their "eyes" opened will se that they need to be set free, and even this work is done by God alone.

All we are really debating here is man's state before God prior to salvation.

You take the Pelagian argument that has been time and again shown to be heresy throughout the church's history. I take the Biblical and historical position that man is completely unable to respond to God apart from God first working. Even the very desire to seek God is caused by God Himself.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/23 14:47Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Here's a question for both logic, and ben.

If there was a single verse that said that men were slaves to sin, and loved sin rather than God, how can you reason that man is free.

If man is enslaved, he is not free. That is a logical fallacy.

You cry, "unfair, unfair"

I never cry, "unfair, unfair", I cry, "tyranny!, tyranny!"

Quote:
But the bottom line is that if God does not change a man's heart, he will not desire the things of God.

That is because, according to your theology, God will not change a man's heart.

Quote:
Men may wish to go to Heaven, but they, like Cain, will develop their own way of getting there rather than submit to Christ and His salvation.

According to your theology, God has already pre-ordainded who will be damned and who will go to heaven, and God's wills for men to sin rather than submit to Christ and His salvation, because HE will not give them what they need to submitt.

Quote:
Men are not walking around worried about their offence to God, but instead the vast majority are planning out how they can sin more, and they drink down their iniquity like water.

According to your theology,that is because they were created for that very purpose. God created them to be that way because HE wanted vessles of wrath.
Your God sends people to hell for no reason other that doing what HE wanted them to do.

Quote:
It is this way until their heart is renewed, and then they hunger and thirst for righteousness.

According to your theology, they are despairing of their heart ever being renewed because god ordained them to wrath.

Again, "unfair, unfair" but "tyranny!, tyranny!"

 2007/10/23 14:58Profile
Psalm73
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 60
Arkansas

 Hard to answer

I'll use good scripture to show you who is damned to hell, (wo to you scribes and pharises, hypocrites) and the common death of all men, is well death. Jesus Christ has compassion on sinners, yet he is the one with power.
The foolish bodies say in their hearts: Tush, there is no God.
Psalm 53 (faithofgod.net reformation O.T)
Corrupt are they, and become abominable in their wickednesses, there is not one that doth good.
53:2
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that would understand, or seek after God.
53:3
But they are all gone out of the way, they are all become unprofitable: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Romans 3, these also have no fear of God before their eyes


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Terry L Merritt

 2007/10/23 15:18Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Hard to answer

Brothers ben and logic here is another question for you guys.

Who decides if a man goes to Heaven or Hell?

You will say, "man decides by his choice."

(Please note the following is completely hypothetical, and is not a description of my theology) :-D

But let's say that if possible a man decides that he will go to Heaven, and he does everything he thinks he needs to do to get there. When he dies, God says, "you may not enter".

Ultimately, who had the choice?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/23 15:32Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Quote:

""
As I also asked, does God lie to Cain when He personally exhorts him and warns him of the choice before him?

In Christ
Jeff""

You cannot have the real thing until He comes and is birthed in you. Able had a preview but not the composition of the whole accomplished and finished.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Where? "in Christ"

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Able was not crucified with Christ. But He will have The Words of God put in His heart, when the earthly Kingdom of God comes in the millennial reign of Christ and His own, the Body of Christ the Church.

Hebrews 10:15-17 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Then will Able be fulfilled, and God's promises to Israel, they will have their land and the promise of their earthly Kingdom with Christ on the throne of David.

Able could not have something, New Birth, "Born again of Spirit and water," (Born Again) that had not come yet. But He will have what is promised to Gods chosen.

Only in the dispensation of the fullness of time can Christ be revealed in you.

Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Israel will be on earth in the Kingdom that was promised to them, an earthly kingdom.

Where are we, the son's of God seated already?

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

In Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2007/10/23 16:29Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

I said:

Quote:
1. There is no place in scripture that says the atonement of the cross was only for the saved.



roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

These line up pretty well with this-
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.



None of these verses say that the atonement is only for the saved. They are only used that way once the misimplications of romans 1 and 9 have come into play.

These verses use the "lack of information" argument, you say that because they do not say "all" then you have an argument.

But I can sit here and pull out a list of near to 15 or 20 verses that clearly state the atonement was for all men.

Have you ever read the passage that Paul writes where he says this:

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 5:15

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one (many be dead), much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded (unto many).[/color][/b]

If we use your logic of many, then from what Paul writes here, we can understand that not all were dead in sin.

I think again we have a logical error, and that you have read into a passage based of of a doctrinal statement on Romans 1 and 9.
------------------------------------------------------

Now, on your most recent post you asked this:

Quote:
Who decides if a man goes to Heaven or Hell?

You will say, "man decides by his choice."

(Please note the following is completely hypothetical, and is not a description of my theology)

But let's say that if possible a man decides that he will go to Heaven, and he does everything he thinks he needs to do to get there. When he dies, God says, "you may not enter".

Ultimately, who had the choice?



In that particular hypothetical situation, God would have had the choice.

However, if you mean to say that that is any kind of actual scenario described in scripture, it is not.

And if you mean to reference it with revelations "I never knew you" speech, then you will have a sad time indeed attempting to prove that. There are two arguments against that. And I do not believe there is any evidence against them.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/23 16:30Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Brothers ben and logic here is another question for you guys.

Who decides if a man goes to Heaven or Hell?

You will say, "man decides by his choice."

(Please note the following is completely hypothetical, and is not a description of my theology) :-D

But let's say that if possible a man decides that he will go to Heaven, and he does everything he thinks he needs to do to get there. When he dies, God says, "you may not enter".

Ultimately, who had the choice?

God would be a lier if the man does what is needed, and God still says, "you may not enter".

 2007/10/23 16:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

So now let us a say a devout Muslim man, or an avowed atheist perish, and come before God. Neither will be saved because they rejected Christ(I think we both agree on this point). But what if their continued rejection(which appears as their free choice) is in reality because God has not given them the grace to believe, or has not drawn them to His Son. In Christ's days there were many who heard His words, saw His miracles, and yet did not believe. To the Pharisees He said, "you do not believe, BECAUSE you are not my sheep."(John 10), but went on to say, "my sheep hear my voice." If someone does not hear, it is because they are not one of the sheep.

Consider Christ's words to His disciples here-
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Is Jesus playing favorites here, or is He really solely concerned for those that were given Him by the Father? John also points out that Jesus did not commit Himself to all men, because He knew what was in them.

And we know that when Peter confessed Christ to be the Son of God, Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not revealed that to him, but the Father in Heaven.

What you attribute to man's will, is nothing more than God passing over people, or withholding grace from them.

No man anywhere, or at anytime can come to Christ unless God initiates a desire within him. To state otherwise is to deny the Bible, and to make Christ Himself out to be a liar.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/23 16:54Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
Consider Christ's words to His disciples here-
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Is Jesus playing favorites here, or is He really solely concerned for those that were given Him by the Father? John also points out that Jesus did not commit Himself to all men, because He knew what was in them.

And we know that when Peter confessed Christ to be the Son of God, Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not revealed that to him, but the Father in Heaven.

What you attribute to man's will, is nothing more than God passing over people, or withholding grace from them.

No man anywhere, or at anytime can come to Christ unless God initiates a desire within him. To state otherwise is to deny the Bible, and to make Christ Himself out to be a liar.



First, I would like to balance what you said by adding other scripture:

[b][color=FF0000]Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not![/color][/b]

Now, I would like to point out that Jesus is speaking of the whole city here, which contained the same people that the verses you quoted mentioned, and Jesus declares that,

"He wants to gather them together to Himself, but they refused"

They did not refuse Him because God did not draw them, it says plainly there that God sent unto them prophets, and others, and that they stoned them and killed them.

Again, if you understood Romans 1, then you would understand what Jesus said to them in the verses you quoted, but what you have said is again unbalanced by other scripture, therefore it is false.
------------------------------------------------------

Another point I might add, John 10 is so easy to understand if you balance it by other scripture.

No other place in scripture says that Christ died only for His sheep, while it may say that He did die for His Sheep, it does not say that He only died for His sheep.

While it does say that He died for all men.

When Christ says you are not my sheep, what does that mean?

Well, if we read the verse where Christ explains it, we will know.

[b][color=FF0000]John 10:27 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;[/color][/b]

There is the definition of "His sheep" by Jesus.

Jesus is revealing the order of salvation,

They hear Him, then He knows them, then they follow Him.

Seems very similar to,

The gospel preached, regeneration to those that believe, then the believer is a follower of Christ.

Coincidence? I don't think so, I think it is quite plain.

He is in essence saying, you do not believe me because you do not hear what I have to say. Those that hear me, believe me, I enter into relationship with them, and they follow me.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/23 17:44Profile





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