Bro Strom ...

Keep you eyes of faith on Him man ... cause as Kermit D. Frog (Sesame St.) says, "It ain't easy being green" ...
:-P ;-)

Bro Robert you wrote;
"The challenge was and still is that the type of message that really needs to be delivered is not welcome in most churches. Pastors are very cautious of allowing folk to come in that have an aggressive message as they are viewed as 'loose canons'. A loose canon was one that was not rightly secured in a ship and could actually go off and blast a hole in your own boat. When resistance is raised it becomes hard not to view them as 'anti-revival' etc. But I think the situation is much more complex than that."


--- What you say i find to be generally true ... i've watched something awful happen to so many once young on fire pastors for God bolting out of the gate, and now 20+ years later those who've not fallen away to sin may be a lot more succesful in terms of congregation size, collections, etc., but many aren't really joyous in God ... They're going thru the motions, while their congrgations go thru the commotions, being majority Af/Am with a seemingly natural inclination so much of it only "emotional", but it's obvious somethings missings (or better that Someone is missing) because the
"high" doesn't seem to last ... It's like one gimmick, after another, and now it seems many a pastor
is running out of gimmicks, and many a saint is beginning to see thru the ruses, and like you said folk are dropping out of church (organized assembly) ...

As i'm coming to the very end of whatever this oft strange and dramatic 20 year season has been in my Christian walk, i'm finding this thread very interesting in that the "movement" i've experienced personally has been so different than bro. Strom's experience ... Mine has been to only one pastor
with explicit instructions (i belive from Holy Spirit) that would pop up in my spirit, as well as explicit
don't for myself like ...

- i could only deliver "words" to pastor (leadership), and not at all to the congregation without his permission (which i never did because he never allowed it) ...

- That i am never to stand in any pastors pulpit, in particular my own, and that in case i should be allowed to speak it has to be at a lower (announcements) rostrum, or from the floor level of the Church (i'm never to think more of my calling than a pastors) ...

- i am never supposed to usurp athority in any type way over my pastor, and neither am i to talk against him (even if i might not like what he's doing) with anyone else in his assembly in any capacity, but am to ever lift him, his ministerial staff, and the congregation up in prayer at all times, and advise any other congregant to do the same ...

In my experience it's been toward calling one pastor to "pro-actively" assemble his ministerial staff together, and that they should weep, repent and pray between the porch and the altar until they hear from God, then to call us all together into solemn assembly before Him in deep repentance, sorrow, a turning from our wickedness, a burying of our residual idols, and a seeking from Him of a fresh fall/filling of Holy Spirit unto REVIVAL and a reawakening of our first love and works toward Him ...

It's funny i've only had one Joel chapter 2 & 3 message all these years and pastor may concider it to "loose canon" (altho i think i'm pretty secure), but those whom i concider "loose canon's" he'll allows them to speak ... For one thing they all feed into that "get money" way of presenting the word, while with me i find that all so heart aching, and breaking ... i believe in Matt. 6:33 ---


Bro. Robert you wrote;
"I think it is fair to say that we were willing to accept any move of God that was biblical. We are not ceasationists. I am Pentecostal- but prefer to believe I am also not in flakesville. I believe in the prophetic unction of God and have witnessed my share of 'manifestations'. The concern has been- that folk are not being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit."


--- Tho i believe myself assigned to a Pentecostal denom/church (COGIC) i don't concider myself a Pentecostal - but a Christian plain and simple ... But in my 20+ years experience in my COGIC congregation i've not concidered them as being in "flakesville" until probably the last 10 years or so as the emphasis has veered from more spiritual quests to those of psuedo-spiritual masking the more "get money by selling Christ out and becoming a more relevant, modern, seeker friendly church" ... i never concidered speaking/praying in tongues (tho very odd to me at first) as flaky (it's in the Bible), neither the shouting, and the wailing at the times that i knew them to be real in praise and/or deliverance, neither the speaking to demons in binding and loosing, nor the all nite prayer vigils, and tarrying for the Holy Ghost, i could find scriptural references for them all ... But what's being practiced now Scripture speaks directly against, and yet it's done - this is what's flaky to me ...

You spoke of "the concern has been- that folk are not being called to genuine repentance accompanied by genuine godly sorrow and faith leading to a genuine born again experience and baptism in the Holy Spirit." ... It seems to me you've spoken of the unsaved here, and what you say is true, but it's the already saved that's in need of the same that brings me to consternation ...

You know this year (2007) marks the centenial of COGIC, and pastor, and 6 million others are all up in an uproar about this, promoting Bishop C H Mason as the founder, and going all out for a retelling
of COGIC history ... To mark this event the head bishops are calling for a 21 day fast to ask God to take us back to where we came from, while my own pastor has called for fast days prior ... Just about everyone's so excited, and making big plans to go to Memphis for the convocation, while i on the other hand care nothing of this, and it hurts my heart to see so much ado that's not directed totally to Jesus ... Bishop Mason, no other pastor, or no other person in my book has the right to call
anyone else other than God the Father, Jesus Christ & Holy Spirit the founder of any church - the best any man can be is co-founder ... And as far as church history, the book of Acts is good enough for me, everything after that is just that, after, and our after history, especially today, is sadly lacking ... i'm just amazed that COGIC leadership can call for a 21 day fast marking a COGIC event, but never has called for one in either honor to Christ alone, or in pursuit of REVIVAL, against all the ills that the church and the world is experiencing ... Man centered empire building has taking precedence over Christ centered kingdom building ... And then there's the pain of watching my own pastor, and fellow saints, floundering in his year long message of "This is Our Year" while many in the assembly murmur at their losses (particularly financial) ... i can only pray God that i actually heard Him in my spirit at the beginning of this year, and that pastor is right that "this is our year", just not in the materially tainted blessings and outpourings he so liberally spices his sermons with ...

Bottom line tho, if things are to remain the same into the new year, i'll be gladly leaving behind both my own personal "prophetic movement" (in being proven false), and Pentecostalism ... Error is bad enuf ... loud error for me would then be no longer tenable ...

Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ! ---

_________________
Christiaan

_________________
Jimmy H

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Mike Compton

I am a little hesitant about recommending another article by Art Katz. But in my opinion, he had a way of saying things pretty precisely and I consider him as one who truly was called to the office of a prophet versus just exercising a gift of prophecy etc. He addressed many things prevalent in the body of Christ and some of the emphasis he saw in the modern revivial movement disturbed him. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just offer his thoughts in his article, "Holiness or Blessing", more as a for what it's worth type of thing as far as the present subject is concerned.

I don't know why the link below keeps showing up after a large space. I tried several times to correct it so I apologize but if it's here it may be down a ways.

"Doc"

























[url=http://www.benisrael.org/writings/articles_artkatz/Australia_Holiness_or_Blessing.html]http://www.benisrael.org/writings/articles_artkatz/Australia_Holiness_or_Blessing.html[/url]

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David Winter

The e-mail was sent out by [email protected] ... which is Andrew's e-mail address.

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Jimmy H

This is really beyond weary ... At what point do we stop peering into our Brethren's souls, stealing their thoughts and replacing them with our own?

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Mike Balog

Hi KingJimmy...

Do you really think that this is so necessary? Did he send that email BEFORE or AFTER his comment in this thread? Even if it came AFTERWARD -- what does it matter?

Personally, I do not have a problem with any sort of promoting of this book. From the looks of it, it is a message that needs to be shared. Besides, do we criticize David Wilkerson when he makes a plug for his books within the letters that accompany his newsletters? Did we criticize Keith Green for including order forms within Last Days Magazine? Did we criticize Leonard Ravenhill for selling his books for a profit? Do we complain when Greg Gordon offered graphic web links that linked to this webpage? Do we complain when we were offered flyers to publicize the Revival Conference? Why not? Is this message less valuable or pertinent than what Wilkerson, Ravenhill or Gordon have to say?

If this message needs to be shared, who cares how the message gets out? We cannot judge this man's heart on the basis of a desire to have the book read.

The truth of the matter is that this book is probably self-published. It costs quite a bit of time and effort to do this. If few people purchase this book, another work by this wonderful man of God may not be available. For this book to "catch on" with people, Brother Andrew actually needs some good reviews. The "money" that he makes (probably not very much anyway) will almost certainly go right back into his ability to continue sharing this message.

This man has a message that needs to be heard. How will this happen if WE do not send him? Would we rather him to start building tents?

:-(

Besides, isn't a "Book Review" simply an honest assessment of the content of the book? There can be both good and bad reviews. He isn't asking for [i]dishonesty[/i].

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Christopher