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 Re:

Quote:
"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."



2 Corinthians 4:14
because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

Ephesians 1:20
which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

Ephesians 2:6
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.


This is what is overlooked here, that those IN CHRIST are the ONLY ones who will be called forth into resurrection of LIFE, because it is the very LIFE of Christ In You that is our Hope of GLORY.

Do you actually believe as Psalms 1 is saying that he wants to raise people from the dead who are outside of Christ......what, to give them a second chance? Do you also know the story of the other Lazarus, and a man who was in torment, calling across to those in Abraham's bosom to ask if one could WARN his family, because he knew his family was doomed if they rejected Jesus Christ? That didn't happen did it,either.

You are saying God is a respector of the lost, giving those who are lost and dead, outside of Christ, knowing they are, (because Paul said for Christians...to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord) a second chance to receive Him and be born again?

It is appointed for man to ONCE die and then the Judgement.

Dorcas, I do not believe as you do, and even though Jeannette talks about the doctrine of Jesus, Jeannette did not defend the DOCTRINE of Christ that only those IN CHRIST will be resurrected.

Just as Psalms 1 believes his to be Jesus doctrine as well. Not everyone who says they have the Doctrine of Jesus Christ really understand the Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

So once again Dorcas, I do not agree with you or Jeannette or Psalms 1 on your understanding of the Resurrection. I believe scripture concerning the resurrection of those to Life...ARE Those in Christ ONLY, and those who will be resurrected unto comdemnation.who have rejected teh ONLY ONE GOSPEL of SALVATION....TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION....TODAY MEANS TODAY!!! AND THOSE WHO REJECT JESUS CHRIST DOCTRINE OF SALVATION ARE DOOMED TO HELL!

Now, you may feel that is being narrow-minded, or possibly as some again will call me a Calvinist out of ignorance, but only those written in the LAMBS Book of LIFE from the foundation of the world have EVERLASTING....ETERNAL ....***LIFE***

However it is WHOSOEVER will receive Jesus Christ as ...to them and them alone gave He the power to be called the sons of God.

Case Closed!!!! Take it up with the Lord, not me!!!!

Love in Christ
Katy-Did



PS added for CONTENT AND TRUTH...the COLD HARD FACTS

Luke 16:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.






 2007/10/9 10:07
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi katy, Ok so you posted scripture that is suppose to imply what you believe.
You can do the same thing to imply raising the dead. ....Just look at different verses.
Did jesus raise the dead....Yes
Did the apostles raise the dead?...Yes
Even in the old testiment the dead are raised.
You seem to be in a dilema. And you are partly right.......It IS appointed to a man once to die.
I dont think God is subject to our dilema.
The greater argument is not wheather or not to raise the dead but .....If we are commanded to do it why would we NOT do it.
...David
Are you cautious? So am I! BUT It looks to me like you are throwing the whole thing out.....Which would be TOTALLY unscriptural.

 2007/10/9 15:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
littlegift, hi.. I ment to say that in this particular instance Jesus didnt quote the psalms or prophets. Not to infer that he never did. But I would have to double check.
I dont think it was a quote but i guess it could have been.
Notice, however ,that Jesus IS the WORD OF GOD. So basically WHATEVER he says is scripture.
.....make sense?

......David

Hi again

When Jesus used healing, raising the dead etc as evidence of His being the Messiah, He did [u]refer to[/u] Isaiah 61 etc, though he didn't always quote or read it word for word (as He read it in Luke 4). John Baptist and his disciples would have known very well the reference to the Isaiah passage and what Jesus was saying when He presented His works of healing etc as evidence.

I think that was the verse you quoted at the beginning, excuse me if I don't go back to the first page - sheer laziness on my part ;_)

Jeannette

 2007/10/9 17:44









 Re: To go back to the original topic

I was reading an article on something else and came across this. It was so relevant to my first post on this thread that it seemed good to include it.

A New Testament example of the non-word for word use of (OT) Scripture [Emphasis mine]:

[color=000066]Mark 1:2-3 is a composite of two verses: Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 1:3. [i][b]Mark's quotation is not exact. What he says cannot be found in either Isaiah or Malachi in its totality[/b][/i] (the first part of Mark's quotation is found in Malachi, and the second in Isaiah). [i][b]The two were mixed together by Mark because they were speaking about the same general thing[/b][/i]. As was common in those days, when an author would mix two verses together in one saying, he would attribute the verse to the more prominent prophet; in this case Isaiah. ...It ... falls within the practices of Mark's day. Again, the reason for the addition of "Isaiah" in the NIV, is a textual variant. Other manuscripts do not give the name of any prophet, but simply say the "prophets." The plural form of "prophets" would indicate that the author had more than one verse written in Malachi in mind. It was found in more than one prophet.[/color]

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/10/9 17:53









 Re: Quoting Scripture?


Hi Katy,

As you've given me a lot to reply to, forgive any brevity, which is merely a function of time and not mood, please.

I don't know if you've ever heard of a 'time line' or would know what that means... but it is a way of laying out historical events in a straight line, a bit like a subway map, not taking much account of the time between each point but concentrating on putting them in order.

I believe if you could do this with the historical perspective in the gospels, much of your frustration would be allayed, as on many many points of doctrine, I agree with you completely. But... and it is a large matter ... it is not possible to agree with you where you skirt round verses which can mean only what the writer originally meant. Raising the dead is one of these. Real dead people were raised to life, as the scripture says. Whatever it does to your theology and mine, the fact of these accounts cannot be evaded or destroyed.

Jesus said:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)


You said

Quote:
This is what is overlooked here, that those IN CHRIST are the ONLY ones who will be called forth into resurrection of LIFE, because it is the very LIFE of Christ In You that is our Hope of GLORY.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement, but this is not the kind of resurrection which is meant by the 'raise the dead' which Jesus sent the disciples out to do (among His other commands).

Quote:
Do you actually believe as Psalms 1 is saying that he wants to raise people from the dead who are outside of Christ......

Katy... please stop and think... when Peter and the other disciples raised the dead, were those people 'in Christ'? Of course not. He had not yet been crucified, nor raised from the dead Himself. Nor sent the Holy Spirit by whom He makes His abode in a man\woman. Not one of those raised from the dead was in Christ at the time, and they still had to decide whether to believe. Jesus had ministered to multitudes (Matt


Quote:
what, to give them a second chance?

Would there be a good reason [i]not[/i] to give someone another chance? Whether they have heard the gospel or not? How many times do some people 'hear' the gospel, before they commit their lives to Christ? And does God reject all the people who didn't receive Him on the very first hearing? (I don't think so.)

Quote:
Do you also know the story of the other Lazarus, and a man who was in torment, calling across to those in Abraham's bosom to ask if one could WARN his family, because he knew his family was doomed if they rejected Jesus Christ? That didn't happen did it,either.

This is where a time line might be handy... Jesus was telling a story about people who had never heard of Him and certainly had never heard of 'resurrection' in their first lives. His point was nothing to do with whether either of them should be physcially raised from the dead, but that despite his outward lack, Lazarus had believed, thus finding favour with God. But the rich man, despite all he had (for which to give God thanks), had chosen not to keep all the law. heed the warnings of the prophets.

Jesus is also saying that a man's fate is in his own hands. He will be held accountable for his heart's attitude to truth. It is, therefore, ironic that the rich man should seek permission to rise from the dead to warn his brothers, since not until he was dead and it was too late, did he 'believe'. Jesus says his brothers will not be impressed even by a resurrection.

Later, when the women had seen Jesus alive from the dead, the disciples wouldn't believe them either... these men who themselves had raised the dead! Jesus regularly marvelled at the unbelief in Israel, and perhaps He was actually saying that unless some people have a brush with death, they will not wake up to an understanding of how serious is the choice they must make.

Quote:
You are saying God is a respector of the lost, giving those who are lost and dead, outside of Christ ... a second chance to receive Him and be born again?

While we were [i][b]all[/b][/i] sinners, Christ died for us, so yes I do believe God is a respector of the lost or we wouldn't be having this discussion. He particularly came to save [i]sinners[/i]. I'm surprised you are surprised!

Quote:
It is appointed for man to ONCE die and then the Judgement.

Yes. And if we have judged ourselves worthy of death, we have passed from death to life. Physical death does not cause us the consternation which dying outside of Christ might cause. This was Paul's focus when he preached in Athens - to mention that the Judge had been chosen and verified by His resurrection from the dead.

Quote:
those who will be resurrected unto comdemnation.who have rejected teh ONLY ONE GOSPEL of SALVATION

While this is true, it is true also that if one raised someone from the dead here on earth, who had not yet believed on Christ for salvation, unless they reject Christ when they hear of Him, they may not be raised finally to the condemnation of unbelief.

Quote:
only those written in the LAMBS Book of LIFE from the foundation of the world have EVERLASTING....ETERNAL ....***LIFE***

Please let me adjust this statement to bring it in line with scripture: only those [[u]still[/u]] written n the Lamb's book of Life from the houndation of the world have... etc.

Let me back up that thought with scripture:
Hi Katy,

As you've given me a lot to reply to, forgive any brevity, which is merely a function of time and not mood, please.

I don't know if you've ever heard of a 'time line' or would know what that means... but it is a way of laying out historical events in a straight line, a bit like a subway map, not taking much account of the time between each point but concentrating on putting them in order.

I believe if you could do this with the historical perspective in the gospels, much of your frustration would be allayed, as on many many points of doctrine, I agree with you completely. But... and it is a large matter ... it is not possible to agree with you where you skirt round verses which can mean only what the writer originally meant. Raising the dead is one of these. Real dead people were raised to life, as the scripture says. Whatever it does to your theology and mine, the fact of these accounts cannot be evaded or destroyed.

Jesus said:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt 10:28)


You said
Quote:
This is what is overlooked here, that those IN CHRIST are the ONLY ones who will be called forth into resurrection of LIFE, because it is the very LIFE of Christ In You that is our Hope of GLORY.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement, but this is not the kind of resurrection which is meant by the 'raise the dead' which Jesus sent the disciples out to do (among His other commands).

Quote:
Do you actually believe as Psalms 1 is saying that he wants to raise people from the dead who are outside of Christ......

Katy... please stop and think... when Peter and the other disciples raised the dead, were those people 'in Christ'? Of course not. He had not yet been crucified, nor raised from the dead Himself. Nor sent the Holy Spirit by whom He makes His abode in a man\woman. Not one of those raised from the dead was in Christ at the time, and they still had to decide whether to believe. Jesus had ministered to multitudes (Matt


Quote:
what, to give them a second chance?

Would there be a good reason [i]not[/i] to give someone another chance? Whether they have heard the gospel or not? How many times do some people 'hear' the gospel, before they commit their lives to Christ? And does God reject all the people who didn't receive Him on the very first hearing? (I don't think so.)

Quote:
Do you also know the story of the other Lazarus, and a man who was in torment, calling across to those in Abraham's bosom to ask if one could WARN his family, because he knew his family was doomed if they rejected Jesus Christ? That didn't happen did it,either.

This is where a time line might be handy... Jesus was telling a story about people who had never heard of Him and certainly had never heard of 'resurrection' in their first lives. His point was nothing to do with whether either of them should be physcially raised from the dead, but that despite his outward lack, Lazarus had believed, thus finding favour with God. But the rich man, despite all he had (for which to give God thanks), had chosen not to keep all the law. heed the warnings of the prophets.

Jesus is also saying that a man's fate is in his own hands. He will be held accountable for his heart's attitude to truth. It is, therefore, ironic that the rich man should seek permission to rise from the dead to warn his brothers, since not until he was dead and it was too late, did he 'believe'. Jesus says his brothers will not be impressed even by a resurrection.

Later, when the women had seen Jesus alive from the dead, the disciples wouldn't believe them either... these men who themselves had raised the dead! Jesus regularly marvelled at the unbelief in Israel, and perhaps He was actually saying that unless some people have a brush with death, they will not wake up to an understanding of how serious is the choice they must make.

Quote:
You are saying God is a respector of the lost, giving those who are lost and dead, outside of Christ ... a second chance to receive Him and be born again?

While we were [i][b]all[/b][/i] sinners, Christ died for us, so yes I do believe God is a respector of the lost or we wouldn't be having this discussion. He particularly came to save [i]sinners[/i]. I'm surprised you are surprised!

Quote:
It is appointed for man to ONCE die and then the Judgement.

Yes. And if we have judged ourselves worthy of death, we have passed from death to life. Physical death does not cause us the consternation which dying outside of Christ might cause. This was Paul's focus when he preached in Athens - to mention that the Judge had been chosen and verified by His resurrection from the dead.

Quote:
those who will be resurrected unto comdemnation.who have rejected teh ONLY ONE GOSPEL of SALVATION

While this is true, it is true also that if one raised someone from the dead here on earth, who had not yet believed on Christ for salvation, unless they reject Christ when they hear of Him, they may not be raised finally to the condemnation of unbelief.

Quote:
only those written in the LAMBS Book of LIFE from the foundation of the world have EVERLASTING....ETERNAL ....***LIFE***

Please let me adjust this statement to bring it in line with scripture: only those [[u]still[/u]] written n the Lamb's book of Life from the houndation of the world have... etc.

Let me back up that thought with scripture: Deuternonomy 32:32.

When reading that verse, please remember that Moses was offering himself, in a foreshadow of the way that Christ offered Himself, and of Christ [u]is[/u] made a mighteir nation: those born again.

 2007/10/9 21:10
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Littlegift, Hi, I went back and read Isa.61 and couldnt find any dead raised ,blind see ,deaf hear statements.
But the reason I referred to this statement by Jesus to John is that John was asking for authenticity.
Jesus basis for authenticicity was the miracles he did not necessisarily scripture.
Although I am NOT saying that Jesus was not authenticated by his fullfillment of scripture.
I say all this to make a point....How do the lost know Jesus is alive? Through the miracles he does.
Or...to say it another way .If Jesus is alive wont signs and wonders still follow him?
....David
Does this make sense?

 2007/10/9 22:12Profile









 Re: Quoting Scripture?


Re: To go back to the original topic

LittleGift quoted an article

Quote:
'...because they were speaking about the same general thing. As was common in those days ...'

This probably explains what I noticed recently, when I tried to find the exact form of works which Paul had used in Romans 11, and couldn't, because he had reversed the preposition from 'to' to 'from'.

Thus the original reads:

Isaiah 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

compared with the New Covenant rendering:

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.]

This is one good example of a prophet writing up to the level of his understanding and revelation consistent with God's dealings with him and his nation, of which I see many such examples in the Old Testament. It was beyond the comprehension of most of them, to take into their thinking, that God Himself was going to come one day, and fulfil their part in their salvation. Up to that time it was unheard of... the salvation they experienced under God was all (it appeared to them) of their own efforts.

It is a very fine dividing line still, between how we perceive our choice to turn from ungodliness, and how we perceive our bondage to sin which means we can [i]never[/i] be right with God [u]apart from Christ's effort[/u]\work [i]on our behalf[/i].

It is this kind of quote from Paul, which underlines just how much his former thinking was dashed to pieces by his encounter with Jesus, while at the same time it necessirly could retain the skeleton of absolute truth God had been speaking to Israel for centuries.

 2007/10/10 6:07









 Re: Quoting Scripture?



David, I'm with you all the way. I think you're doing a fine job of putting into words what you would like to see put into the good works for which saints have been saved, which have been prepared for them from eternity.

'Jesus basis for authenticicity was the miracles he did not necessisarily scripture.
Although I am NOT saying that Jesus was not authenticated by his fullfillment of scripture.'

Amen.

Matthew 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (Also Luke 10:13)

John 14:11
Believe me that I in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost...

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [i]art[/i] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: [u]that the world may believe that thou hast sent me[/u].


This is what MikeB is writing about in his new thread in Articles and Sermons - 'Not a Trivial Pursuit':

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19974&forum=34&2]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19974&forum=34&2[/url]


The Spirit is trying to get something through to us, I believe, about being part of the 'one body' of Ephesians 4. We need each other.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19993&forum=35&5]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19993&forum=35&5[/url]

 2007/10/10 6:37
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

dorcas, yes, I agree, the Lord is taking his people deeper.
I really felt stirred when i read a quote from philologos "....But God is bigger than his book"
It brought me back to a time that the Lord rebuked me after i was witnessing to a customer.
I thought "I" had done such a fine job quoting scripture to this man.
After he left the Lord rebuked me."Christianity is not a doctrine its a person."
"Dont give them doctrine give them me"
To this day I wrestle with this concept.How do I give them Jesus? All I know at this point Is I need to be"real".I also believe I need to walk in Love.
How can Jesus give a dead baby made whole back to his mama except through you and me?
It looks like I am against quoting scripture but I am only wanting the scripture comming from my mouth to be comming from a REAL person.
The "red letters of the bible seem to rebuke my very core.
It seems we are so fake compared to what we read of even the modern patriarchs.
We seem to have an abstract Jesus. They seem to be more real than us.
We know more about the bible than Jesus.[just kidding]
When we see him face to face it is our relationship with him that will matter.
We can talk "to" him and never talk WITH him.
Make sense?
......David
Thank you for that verse in matt. I want to look closely at it.
You always seem to have a jewel for the bretheren.

 2007/10/10 10:30Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
psalm1 wrote:
It brought me back to a time that the Lord rebuked me after i was witnessing to a customer.
I thought "I" had done such a fine job quoting scripture to this man.
After he left the Lord rebuked me."Christianity is not a doctrine its a person."
"Dont give them doctrine give them me"

The way not to do this(give them doctrine) is to speak to there heart.
I like the way Ray Comfort does it.

 2007/10/10 23:00Profile





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