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 Re: Quoting scripture?



Hi again Katy,

I do believe I read your posts and it certainly isn't clear that you agree with Jeanette but welcome that we have general agreement if that's what you thought you were saying.

Quote:
Here is another interesting tidbit.......Who's faith are we talking about.....the Faith of the Elders or the faith of the Sick person......does it actually say?

It seems, now that you went on to explain further here:
Quote:
Many people are HURT believing it was their lack of faith that they or their loved one was not physically healed.

that you have really wrestled with this question, and I respect that greatly.

My reply to your question as to whose faith it is... I believe it is the faith of Jesus Christ. I've said a more about this in the first thread I ever posted on SI called 'Healing - who gets it?' which is actually very inconclusive.


On your point about prayer and faith for the healing of saints, that's an interesting thought. Smith Wigglesworth described what he called 'the gift of faith' as also being one way that healing comes to (it was an unbeliever, a stranger, in his example, I believe) some. I also have had a similar experience, of overwhelming faith for a certain healing, [EDIT: of a saint] which did indeed take place within a couple of hours of praying for it. (That's not the only one, but not all are like that.)


About walking on water rather than raising the dead, I think you're pushing your indignation just a little too far. No-one got healed by walking on water, and Jesus only did it once according to our record. But when He sent the message to John the Baptist that 'dead are raised' I don't believe the few mentioned in the gospels are the only ones, because of the commission He gave the seventy, and, His instruction to 'freely you have received, freely give'.


One question I've been asking in an indirect way to the Lord is 'How do you know which dead to raise?' I think maybe I answered it in my last post to you! As usual, the human mind was looking for a formula... :-o

 2007/10/7 15:24









 Re:

Quote:
About walking on water rather than raising the dead, I think you're pushing your indignation just a little too far.



No indignation here. Psalms seems to suggest or mayby I misunderstood that Paul and the Apostles did not do what they did by Jesus Christ.

I do appreciate you said by the faith of Jesus, and not our own power. Peter walked on water, remember, not just Jesus. So if we are to do greater works then these, why not walk on water or move mountains.....Actually Jesus said we would move mountains....have you seen anyone do that?

On the issue of Doctrine, I do believe Jeannette was in agreement with what I was saying to Psalms 1. I didn't take it she was in disagreement with the fact that everything Jesus said and did WAS DOCTRINE.

So yes, doctrine is important.

Quote:
One question I've been asking in an indirect way to the Lord is 'How do you know which dead to raise?' I think maybe I answered it in my last post to you! As usual, the human mind was looking for a formula...



I do believe Psalms 1 WAS asking for a formula when he asked if there were any books on the subject of raising the dead. So whatever reply to me you gave it was out of my reply to Psalms 1. It does get confusing.

The ONLY group I know who deals and teaches raising people from the dead are from the Benny Hinn crowd. But where are the Headlines for such things.....the interviews with the families. Sounds like BIG News to me, but only word of mouth reports, and it seems as though those who were raised, no one can find.

Do you know Doctors can now raise people from the dead. I'll post an article on this.

Many people have been brought back to life on the operating table without the help of Benny Hinn and Company and they do make the news.

But there are many who have died by "DEATH BY FAITH", one such little boy who was stung by over 200 hornets....his parents denied medical treatment to the child, because of their belief in Faith Healing.

The stories are numerous of malpractice in teh church of Faith healers telling people to stop taking their medicine....

There is something called "Presumptuous sin", that may very well fall into this category that we demand of God and that He is at our beckon call, all because we call out the name of Jesus.

There is another about taking God's name in vain....and it doesn't mean swearing or cursing.

When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, one thing Satan said is "Jump off this mountain...doesn't scripture say that God and His angels will catch you"?

Jesus replied...."Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God".

Let's raise the dead by lifting up the CROSS where those who are DEAD in tresspasses and sin can find LIFE everlasting.

We have a choice NOW while we are alive....Chose Life! There are no second chances to those who have passed away and 6 feet under. It's blasphemy to suggest there is. Lazarus was already a believer, as Jesus used this to show HE IS THE RESURRECTION.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

http://cbs3.com/health/local_story_270203929.html

Yes, and in keeping with this thread, how important is CORRECT DOCTRINE:
See link below:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html

 2007/10/7 16:25









 Re:

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:

You did read THIS PART???

Quote:
If we eliminated homosexual male sex and intravenous drug use, HIV would be reduced by at least three fourths in this country.


[size=xx-small]Indeed I did, why do you ask? I agree of course, (though not knowing the statistics, I can't comment on the exact proportion). Except that, in Africa, I understand that the main transmission of HIV is through heterosexual sex. [/size]

Quote:
I believe there will always be innocent people HURT by the SIN of another!!!!!! But it all boils down to SIN......doesn't it....that was the point.....SIN...SIN...

If a drunk driver KILLED an innocent person, the innocent person dies .....because of someone's SIN...Drunk Driving.

The innocent DO suffer from the sins of their parents.....alcohol fetal syndrome, crack babies.

Whether we like it or not, understand it or not, think it's fair or not, it's a fact….

[size=xx-small]Indeed, all that you wrote under this point is true. I don’t think anyone here would dispute it. Except that you seemed to be previously condemning wholesale those who had AIDS. Obviously, you don't, as I now see.

But you seem to be disputing [i]something[/i] and i still don't know exactly why or what :-?

Except that you think that there is a tendency to soften the Gospel, and understood David's,(Psalm1) remarks to be doing so?

But I still don’t understand why you compared him with Rick Warren, or even perhaps Simon the sorcerer (the fellow who tried to buy the power of the Holy Spirit). I would find such remarks extremely hurtful if said to me, or even implied that I came into that kind of category. Even knowing that you probably don't mean it as harshly as it sounds.

Love in Him

Jeannette[/size]


 2007/10/7 18:18









 Re:

Quote:
Except that you think that there is a tendency to soften the Gospel, and understood David's,(Psalm1) remarks to be doing so?



Actually, the Gospel today is being softened, and even done away with through the New Insurgent means and methods of the New Evangelicals, who would perhaps do away with the word SIN all together and call SIN by the name now of disease(s).....not dealt with at Calvary.

Or possibly placing so much more emphasis on our earthly flesh for momentary healings or being raised from the dead, as something more miraculous than the Miracle of our New Birth.

Quote:
But you seem to be disputing something and i still don't know exactly why or what



I don't think disputing may be the accurate word...maybe disappointed that when the Miracle of our New Birth, our forgivness of Sin, or the Spirit of Life in Christ that has set us free from the Law of sin and death, seem to be taking a back seat, or no seat all here. If you do perchance re-read my posts ...they are all about Jesus Christ and what HE did for us. It doesn't seem to be enough for some! But for US who are Saved and Born Again, it is more than enough, because we know we don't deserve so wonderful a Love as Jesus Dying in our place, taking our wrath upon Him, that we may have eternal Live and be with the Lord forever and forever.

We don't mind the loss of all things if that is what the Lord so chooses for us who are on this earth for such a short time. We freely receive with all humility the blessings In Christ Jesus, the Riches that are in Christ, the world will never see.

We love the Lord for who He is, not what we can get. We love the Giver not the Gift, the blesser not the blessing....because we have been blessed all ready with Heavenly Blessings in Heavenly Places IN CHRIST JESUS! And we give back our lives, to use as He wills, not as we will.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

 2007/10/7 21:47
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

littlegift, hi.. I ment to say that in this particular instance Jesus didnt quote the psalms or prophets. Not to infer that he never did. But I would have to double check.
I dont think it was a quote but i guess it could have been.
Notice, however ,that Jesus IS the WORD OF GOD. So basically WHATEVER he says is scripture.
.....make sense?

......David

 2007/10/7 22:36Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Katy-did, hi .. It was a rehtorical question[about books on raising the dead].
Now about the apostles praying different what i mean is the "prayer" they make is more of a command than a prayer.
The man by the gate beautiful,They said "In the name of Jesus rise up and walk"
They didnt ask Jesus to do it.
Now follow the event into the temple,and we see the apostles give ALL glory to Jesus where it belongs.
If I or anyone goes to a sick person to lay hands on them there is a annointing that automatically comes on you.....And you will notice this.
Or if you go to England and witness to muslems there is also an annointing that comes on you.
I have a precious baptist brother i fellowship with. He tells me"when I witness i get such a rush"!
He is experiencing the annointing.
This doesnt mean anything is done outside of Jesus.
Icouldnt tell if you answeredmy question or not about raising the dead. If the apostles raised the dead and Jessus did it too, why would we NOT want to do it"?
....David

 2007/10/7 23:02Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Katy-did, One thing i do need to clarify.I DO NOT think all people are to be raised from the dead.
But think for a moment about this from another perspective......If a man dies outside of Jesus. His fate is unimmagineable. However, if he is raised from the dead the devil looses.
If I ever do raise the dead I will be 100% scriptural just like my king was when he did it.
Yall may not cheer me on but that "great cloud of witnesses" in the book of heb. will.
There are only 2 powers to call on ,God and the devil.
I call on God
It sounds right to say "we seeek Gods face and not his hand"
Or...."Iseek the giver and not the gift"
But these statements to me are cliche's, They have a "noble" ring to them but i think heaven rejects this concept.
Even in the natural it is clear. Tell your earthly father "no dad idont want your gift. That would be perverted to accept anything from you.I just want to sit with you"
So you see to reject a gift is to hurt the giver.
do we hurt God when we reject what he freely gives to us?
..David

 2007/10/7 23:37Profile









 Re: Quoting Scripture?


Hi Katy,

Quote:
Psalms seems to suggest or mayby I misunderstood that Paul and the Apostles did not do what they did by Jesus Christ.

I seem to remember earlier in the thread, that you were reading the book by GW North. He covers this point, of the difference between the disciples' commissioning before Jesus' death and resurrection, and their commissioning afterwards.

We find in Matthew, Mark and Luke, an account of Jesus [i]giving[/i] the twelve [i]authority[/i] over unclean spirits and to heal all kinds of sickness and disease. In Mat 8:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, [u]raise the dead[/u], cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give..." we find raising the dead thrown in with cleansing lepers, healing sick and casting out demons, as if it is no bigger a deal. [i]By its very mention, it cannot be ignored.[/i] At the same time, it cannot be over spiritualised either. [u]These men were unregenerate at the time[/u]. 'Freely you have received' therefore, refers to the commission and the authority, rather than to their salvation [i]per se[/i]. We are a long way from John 17 at this point in the narrative (where Jesus tells His Father He has not lost any of the men He had given to Him).

Quote:
We have a choice NOW while we are alive....Chose Life! There are no second chances to those who have passed away and 6 feet under. It's blasphemy to suggest there is. Lazarus was already a believer, as Jesus used this to show HE IS THE RESURRECTION.

Katy, this does not make sense historically. Yes, we who have never died like Lazarus did, can choose life. But Lazarus had no such choice. He didn't die because he hadn't chosen life. He died because he had been ill. He died of natural causes, and his resurrection was a simple calling back of his spirit into his body. He would still have had to believe in Jesus' resurrection, and receive the Holy Spirit, to be born again and [i]saved[/i] in the way that we are now.

We all will face a resurrection to judgement after we have died, whether we fall asleep in Jesus or not. The other thing to note about Lazarus' resurrection, is that it was definitely not the first raising-from-the-dead which Jesus had done according to the gospels.

Unlike others though, Lazarus had been buried in the way they do in that part of the world (not buried 6ft under) for four days, so that Martha pointed out that by the time Jesus arrived, his body would be stinking (decomposing). This is exactly what you have said should not be done - give someone who is actually buried, that kind second chance. You've actually called it blasphemy (which is a very strong word). And, we find in the story of Lazarus that Jesus thought otherwise - and did otherwise, by raising him. Therefore, I believe we also should think otherwise, if we are to be able to claim to have His mind.

There are verses in John's gospel, which state this was [i]very much[/i] part of [u]the gospel according to Jesus[/u]. As I read this before posting it, I realised that 'raising the dead' is counterintuitive to natural man, but apart from it having happened in the Old Testament first, it serves as a picture everyone can see of what it is [i]not[/i] to be bound by death.

This is important for two reasons. The first is that it's hard enough to understand what we are saved 'for', 'from' and 'to' - on this earth - and even harder to really understand what eternity is going to be like. But... this is not a picture only for believers. Unbelievers also will face their own resurrection: Jesus here is explaining universal spiritual truths to any and all who would listen. It certainly makes me sit up and pay attention!

John 5:19 - 29
Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, [u]that you may marvel[/u]. [color=006699]For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [i]them,[/i] even so [u]the Son gives life to whom He will[/u].[/color] For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."


EDIT: This is why now, when we are desiring to serve Him, we need to be 'endued with power from on high'. The word for power there, means closer to dynamic than authority. In Luke's gospel, he mentions 'dunamis' [i]and[/i] 'authority', whereas Matthew and Mark record only 'authority'. Without doubt, once Jesus had commissioned the disciples again, after His resurrecton, they had fresh authority. But they still needed the dynamic power. Which comes from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. end EDIT


Quote:
The ONLY group I know who deals and teaches raising people from the dead are from the Benny Hinn crowd. But where are the Headlines for such things.....the interviews with the families. Sounds like BIG News to me, but only word of mouth reports, and it seems as though those who were raised, no one can find.

'only word of mouth reports' are pretty reliable, I'd say. I hope you're not one of these people who wants photographic evidence before they believe the [i]word[/i] of another believer-in-Christ... My understanding is that mainly these are happening in persecuted church situations in other countries (China, for instance) and so word is getting out only slowly, and for fear of highlighting believers who are already in serious danger, few details are given. It's not that 'people' don't know these things are really happening, but they are not at liberty to make it world news and put it on tv... if you see what I mean. That's not quite what Jesus intended either. He is interested in saving individuals, each as important as another.


In my post above, I've addressed those of your sentences I've quoted. I don't dispute that Jesus came to deal with sin, but that was only one aspect of it. He came to make people whole, also, in ways that would enable them to focus on Him more fully, and serve Him more effectively.


EDIT: I don't mean to make that sound dismissive of what Jesus did about sin, but healing our bodies is part of that work, as I understand His ministry.

 2007/10/8 15:48









 Re:

Quote:
Katy-did, One thing i do need to clarify.I DO NOT think all people are to be raised from the dead.But think for a moment about this from another perspective......If a man dies outside of Jesus. His fate is unimmagineable. However, if he is raised from the dead the devil looses.
If I ever do raise the dead I will be 100% scriptural just like my king was when he did it.



Psalms 1, I do know Dorcas and Jeannette will completely encourage you in your wanting to raise the dead, as they seem to have overlooked that actual DOCTRINE in scripture concerning the Resurrection.


This is what I believe, according to the scriptures. So I'm sure, as we post OUR individual beliefs, (and I do have a right to my own as well, without lecture.. Here is where I stand concerning the Resurrection of the dead.


Hebrews 2:
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


1 Corinthians 15:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Philippians 3
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.



Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)


 2007/10/9 8:31









 Re: Quoting Scripture?


Hi Katy,

I would greatly appreciate if you would begin to apply to yourself, the strictures you declare fair to apply to others.

Jeanette wrote eloquently about the words and life of Christ being the ultimate true doctrine (soundness being taken for granted, thereby), which you yourself had drawn attention to some pages ago, when you quoted

1 Timothy 6:3
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, [i]even[/i] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness,

Now please, [u]if[/u] you believe the Bible at all, please begin to write to us as if you have taken on board that this (1 Tim 6:3) [u]is[/u] a definition of true doctrine - 'the words of our Lord Jesus Christ' which eternally cannot be shaken or in any way pressed out of shape to suit [i]any[/i] one us, including yourself...

because you have written

Quote:
...as [u]they[/u] seem to have overlooked that actual DOCTRINE in scripture comcerning the Resurrection.

which, simply is not true of my very last post, in which I quoted [u]Jesus Himself[/u], who according John said:

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."


This is exactly what you are talking about. I put it in my last post to show I that I do take your concern for that last resurrection seriously.

But, this is only part of the 'resurrection' story, because what John also had quoted before that from Jesus in the same flow of thought, is:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live."

Because this does not involve graves and bodies, it is possible to spiritualise it completely, but there is no getting away from the fact that what Jesus said about graves and bodies was also what we would call prophetic, because this happened:

Matthew 27
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 [u]Then[/u], behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
52 [u]and[/u] the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the graves [u]after His resurrection[/u], they went into the holy city [u]and appeared to many[/u].


How can you say Jesus was not really talking about the resurrection of dead people who had been buried? This is [u]exactly[/u] what is going to happen to [u]all[/u] the saints one day. This is your point.

I would go further than you have probably thought ever, which is to say that there is a measure of resurrection going on in us now, because of His life working in us, as we accept the death of our flesh life (Rom 8:11). The give-away word in that verse is 'mortal', because we all know that once we are raised from the dead, we will have an [u]im[/u]mortal body.


It seems you are missing in your thinking, that what Paul and the other apostles wrote, was because they had a living relationship with the Word of God Himself, through the Holy Spirit.

This is normal for anyone who has received the Holy Spirit - that we do His works. Raising the dead is something about faith being outworked by love, in us, as it was, and is, in Jesus.

 2007/10/9 9:37





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