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Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

God did allow Adam and Eve to fall in sin, it can't be that God was taken by surprise and had to think up a plan b which was less glorious, then His first design.


_________________
Jonathan Veldhuis

 2007/9/1 11:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Warrior4Jah wrote:
God did allow Adam and Eve to fall in sin, it can't be that God was taken by surprise and had to think up a plan b which was less glorious, then His first design.


Yes, we have to factor in Adam's freewill and God's forknowledge of how Adam would choose. That is why the birth of Jesus was also foreknown of God, "and in the fullness of time....was born". Father foreknew man would need to be redeemed... but to what, in the purpose of God intended for Adam? What was God's ultimate intention except to have many sons brought to Glory. Now, instead of Adam being the progenitor, Jesus now has that distinction.

 2007/9/1 11:10









 Re:

Galatians 3:

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,

*****there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The ****HEIRS**** according to **the** PROMISE!!!!

(A Promise that was NEVER made to Adam and EVE).

For if Adam 1 was to have been the First Lord of Lords and King of Kings,( had He succeeded) would then have made EVE the first Goddess of Heaven or QUEEN of Heaven and Earth.

WE know where this teaching comes from...PAGANISM, MYTHOLOGY etc. !!!


Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/9/1 15:18









 Re: why the confusion.

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
God's perspective is to see that Adam, though made a living soul, was, by choosing the way of self-renounciation, as Jesus later gives us the example, progress to a point in time when he would have experienced transfiguration; incarnating the Christ of Glory into his flesh. The result would have been that many sons would have been procreated without sin making the need for redemption unecessary. Jesus, regardless of our 20/20 hindsight, would not ever have been born. There would have been no need for a redeemer. I might that that is the reason God chose procreation as the means for "birthing" His sons. When Adam failed, by virtue of heredity, only one sinless being would ever be necessary for reconcilation/redemption. His Name was Jesus.

Had Adam not sinned, would he not have been the Captain; the Lord.

This is not about man's salvation at this point in time. It is about procreating many sons and grooming them for divinity; Adam, was to be the Author of son-ship. Adam who was perfected in the Eternal Character of the Father by the continual renouncing of His "self" nature; giving "His utmost for His Hightest". Had he not transgressed he would have succeeded; the "first of first fruits". However, Alas and Alac its now all academic.



I am writing this in love and His peace, so please receive it as such. This quote above is heresy, except for The "only One sinless 'being'" - being [u]needed[/u] for reconciliation and redemption and may I add, Regeneration - Who's Name we all know - Who shed His blood for the cause of sin - Freewill - the Choice to obey or not.
Adam merely represented mankind with freewill and what 'any' man would do with freewill - that is why he is representative of mankind in total. He disobeyed one "law". He only had "one" law to obey, in a Good environment, with a good body and even the priviledge to walk and talk in the garden with Eloheim - The triune One God. That's "man". He represents ALL of mankind and their inability to follow God's law. [i]1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.[/i] The whole of this was and is to point all the Glory to The Son. The Bible [God's Plan] was and is Christocentric.
Having man become as Lord by obeying the law was not in any way the program and it was and is a complete impossibility without Christ. And even with Christ, we will not become "divinity".
Jesus was The Logos made flesh. Big difference. Jesus was what we could be, while He was in the flesh only, but we will never be divinity - Adam was what we are before Jesus/God 'indwells' us. The Savior will be our Father and we will be His sons Rev. 21:7. We have His Divinity within our spirits, but we are not and will not be divinity.
Why were those who 'would be' His sons, [i]also[/i] known before the foundation of the world ?
Why was Christ "Predestined" ? Your answer earlier is not sufficient Biblically. [ie. "counting the cost of building.]

To say that, had Adam obeyed God, there would have been no need for God to come and shed His Own blood, is error, because that was "The Plan" before creation, Because man cannot obey God without The Lamb. Rom 7. If man could obey the law [thou shalt not eat of ...] then The Lamb would not have been slain from the foundation of the world.
His 'Plan' - was before the beginning - that we would have this Kinsmen Redeemer, Who was God in the flesh, called Immanuel to be our Righteousness ... not having a righteousness of our own, that is by the law ... and so forth. Philippians 3.

You are going too far with focusing on just a man, made from the dust of the earth. The Bible's mentions of Adam, does not even touch where you have gone with these "what if's", in fact it goes just the opposite.
The Word of God only uses Adam as an Explanation of His Love - in that, "man cannot save himself". It is impossible and Adam proved it. That is the example that Adam has left us. The Law was a school-master to lead us to Christ, because the law proved we could not obey --- just as Adam couldn't.
Only the God-Man could cause a human to be transformed into the image of the Son/God.
He is HolyLove - come in the flesh - to destroy our rebellious nature, so that we may now "reckon it dead". Without the empowering of His Spirit - which Jesus depended on while here, as we should, rebellion/sin cannot be overcome.
Had Adam eaten of the tree of life, would he have then miraculously lost his "freewill" ? Then, could he have still sinned after eating from the tree of life ?
Adam was "representative man" - Jesus "representative God in a man".
To say Adam would have become "Lord Adam", as you're said, is not accurate at all. Christ was Predestined from Eternity past. Before Creation. To say that "God's plan would have made Adam Lord is going beyond anything written about Adam and excludes all written of The Lamb.
You can teach Biblical sonship, without going extra-Biblical on your teachings and speculating over Adam. In order for Adam to "be perfect AS Christ was perfect", Adam would have #1 - needed to be God in the flesh and 2 - would have needed to never - future tense, After had he eaten of the tree of life - to never sin - ever.
All sin needs a means of pardon and God from the beginning had said - it would cost a blood covering. That's why the fig leafs didn't cover it. That's why Cain's offering wasn't accepted. How would Adam's future sin and those of his offspring have been forgiven ? Would they have had a "sinless perfection" experience and how ?
How would eating from the tree of life - have made Adam or his seed incapable of any "future" sin ?
The tree of Life would have produced "physical immortality" only. Nowhere is it implied that it is the tree of life which "transforms" one to the image of Christ or removes freewill to sin. To say that it would have made their offspring "the sons of God" - [who would also be immortals with freewills, but not with the risen Christ within them to "perfect" them] is again, going beyond what is written. When we receive our Glorified Bodies, Then we "shall be like Him" and receive the final heirship of our adoption. [u]We will not be "pro-creating" in glorified bodies.[/u] So that shows that eating of the tree of life would not have given Adam a glorified body, because as you say, he would have then gone on to "pro-create" perfect little darlings.
There was only One plan for sonship for Creation - God's plan was for sonship through His Only Begotten Son, Only. The "law" was to point us to Him.
The Tree of Life had no other powers to do anything but make mortal flesh immortal. Not transform Adam into what the sons of God are now by Virtue of Immanuel's blood - Who is the Predestined "First Born and First Fruits" among many brethren, so that in ALL things HE might have the Preeminence - Colossians 1 & 1 Corth 15.

To go on with this speculation, of something that was not even in the mind of God - Not His Plan - is to go beyond what is written of Adam and The Lamb/The Son, that was slain from the foundation of the world.
You believe in foreknowledge, but don't quite take it out far enough. You are taking Glory from Him, His Foreknowledge/Omniscience and His plan, with these speculations that are not written into Scripture. It was not God's plan for Adam to become physically immortal in that state. Though God did not 'cause' Adam to eat from the tree of good and evil, [as He did not cause 1/3 of the angels to fall] - He knew that "man without the indwelling of His Spirit" could Not Obey - as it is written.
That was the whole point. Adam/Man "could not obey" and God knew that before He created him. It would take GOD to be the propitiation for man's freewill and then the Indwelling of His Spirit to make "sons". "Born-Again" by the Spirit. And those who died B.C. and are now with Him, are with Him because of their Faith - just as we will be.
Adam would have not have been obedient and had Adam eaten of the tree of life - where would the Glory to God have been ? It would have said that "man can obey the law without God's intervention or needed sacrifice", thus glorifying man alone.
You are under the impression that I or we don't understand. I understand what you are saying. I have no problems with Romans and Galatians and I doubt anyone else here does.
The whole of the Bible is a Love Story - of God's love for His creation. His Love being the sole cause of all He's done by Creating Creation in the first place and then dying for it. It is not a Mystery Novel. There are not "what if's " in It. He is Sovereign. The only 'what if' that we should look at is - What If God did not Love the world - than what ?
The Entire Plan was because He is Love. He wanted sons and daughters/ or His Bride, to enjoy His Love and Love Him by their own freewill - and HE provided the only provision that would or could enable a human "to" love with His Love - which is not human love and cannot be found in an unregenerate human.
Being perfected in His Love, is Only what makes us go on to sonship or make up His Bride.
The Word is clear in explaining how man could not follow God's law - first made obvious by Adam. That is all we need to know about the "representative [u]man[/u]" Adam. He was "just a man". Lucifer was "just an angel".
No - Adam would have never have been "Lord Adam". And the only place "Captain" is used is for the Captain of our Salvation. If you say that Adam could have been the Captain of our Salvation, you may as well take the whole Bible and tear it up. Either God is Sovereign and all-knowing or He is not.
Adam merely represented what any man would have done. Representative of all men.
You are twisting the simplicity of The Gospel with your attempts to spiritualize it and thus go beyond "what is written". I was taught - that to do so to the Word of God, is our attempt to appear more spiritual ourselves and to be admired, to form a following. Had you preached or displayed the Love of God, which is the whole purpose of Creation and Redemption in it's Entirety, rather than give short-smug replies to so many, from the beginning - to those who couldn't understand [i]your[/i] concepts, most wouldn't have the questions that they've had and this much confusion. Far too many of your answers are demeaning to those who don't understand your "theories". Your thoughts on Adam are theories and speculations that exceed what is written. The tone alone of your answers, do nothing but prove that you are speaking to humans in a tone that He Himself would never use and neither would any of the N.T. Authors. He and they spoke simply to the people [except for those who thought they did have a righteousness of their own to obey without Him]. He and they spoke with love and the desire to bring 'understanding' - not to cause such a display of self-focus by mystery, as you've done through-out these few threads that I've seen.
A servant of The Lord, never sets himself up to confuse, but to paint plain/clear word pictures - that even a child could understand - and not use sawed-off short sentences to make them feel as if you are holding the Ace in the hole and give the "I know the 'secret' but you don't" type impression in your answers. HIS teachers are patient, bring truth to a child's level and do not cause months of confusion.
Back in the 70's, the teachings of Bill Britton infiltrated our Church. Those who embraced it, became similarly smug to the rest of us. "They had the secret of sonship" and we didn't.
Though you may not be an adherent to that particular "Sonship Doctrine or Sonship Message", the affects of going beyond what is written is still the same. Addressing people with the "I know something you fools don't know."
We are first saved by grace through faith and then, "to them that [u]obey[/u] Him, by faith through love - to them He gives the power/authority to become the sons of God." Period!
It is no wonder that you've left a trail of confusion behind you. You'd better to just post Chambers.
Yes, we must go beyond just our "redemption" and see that the only fruit that bears witness that we are the sons of God is our obedience - of 'walking in the spirit', as He did while on earth and being transformed by the renewing of our minds by the washing of The Word, because those whom He did Foreknow, He did predestine to be transformed into the image of His Son, so that we would walk as He did, while in the world and do all that He did and ultimately become 'like' Him. Sonship is so simple to explain, I know 5 year olds that can teach it. "The simplicity of The Gospel" was meant for children.
That is "simply spoken" - and worked out with fear and trembling, that is generated by our love for Him, because it is He that worketh in us, both to do and to will of His good pleasure - which through the obedience of seeking Him with all of our hearts, because of our Love for Him, so that we might love as He does and IS, we are thus fulfilling all the law and the prophets and only by His love actively working in us - because we sought Him for HIMSELF, will we be faithful unto the end and thus by that fruit/love of His nature within us - are we known as He is known and as His Elect. Without His Love/Him - being our goal that we 'strive' or press on toward - we are not His. If we love Him, we will strive to Know Him and be transformed into The Word of God's Image - Who Is Love.
May HE be manifested to you as - One Omniscient [total foreknowledge] God, with One 'Eternal' Plan, motivated solely by One HolyLove to The Glory of Himself Alone.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, .......... , to feed the church of [u]God which He hath purchased with His Own blood.[/u]

 2007/9/1 17:47









 Re:

Quote:
To say that, had Adam obeyed God, there would have been no need for God to come and shed His Own blood, is error, because that was "The Plan" before creation,



However, that was plan "B". Adam was plan "A".

God had all the bases covered.

You aren't thinking to believe what I wrote is heresy.

 2007/9/1 18:24









 Re:

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
God's perspective is to see that Adam, though made a living soul, was, by choosing the way of self-renounciation, as Jesus later gives us the example, progress to a point in time when he would have experienced transfiguration; incarnating the Christ of Glory into his flesh. The result would have been that many sons would have been procreated without sin making the need for redemption unecessary. Jesus, regardless of our 20/20 hindsight, would not ever have been born. There would have been no need for a redeemer. I might that that is the reason God chose procreation as the means for "birthing" His sons. When Adam failed, by virtue of heredity, only one sinless being would ever be necessary for reconcilation/redemption. His Name was Jesus.

Had Adam not sinned, would he not have been the Captain; the Lord.

This is not about man's salvation at this point in time. It is about procreating many sons and grooming them for divinity; Adam, was to be the Author of son-ship. Adam who was perfected in the Eternal Character of the Father by the continual renouncing of His "self" nature; giving "His utmost for His Hightest". Had he not transgressed he would have succeeded; the "first of first fruits". However, Alas and Alac its now all academic.




This above is what I commented to.

We'll let some other man step up to the plate now, if they feel led to. I've shot the wad for now.
I can only ask, How could Perfect Omniscience-Omnipotence even need a "plan B" ?

 2007/9/1 18:49









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns asked:
I can only ask, How could Perfect Omniscience-Omnipotence even need a "plan B" ?



Simply because plan "A" failed.

Whay is so difficult to understand about?

Now, I will ask you: Why do you suppose Jesus was called the 'First of First Fruits'? Surely Him, as God, it wouldn't be necessary.

 2007/9/1 19:12
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Plan A is still in effect. Nothing man or angles can do outfox God or make Him change His plan to plan B, which never existed or will exist. His plan is perfect and it is His plan and it does not depend on man or angles.

The Plan was already in effect before the foundation and until the new heaven and earth are exactly as God planned and intended them to be before and from the foundation of all we know.

Ephesians 1:2-14 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Who's will?
Who's glory?
Who's redemption?
Who's salvation?
Who's wisdom?
Who's righteousness?
Who's justification?
Who's sanctification?
Who's Plan?
And on and on and on.

Only God. "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have"

Who's dispensation?
Who's Christ?
Who's heaven?
Who's, "word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:"?
Who's sealed us in this salvation?

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Not god the Adam.

In Christ, by whom? Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/9/2 1:01Profile









 Re:

Christinyou,

You will never connect the dots using that thinking.


THINK! Jesus, "son of Adam" was of necessity because Adam failed. All that you posit from Ephesians is and was, AFTER THE FACT OF ADAM"S TRANSGRESSION.

 2007/9/2 6:41









 Re:

Let's go back to the Garden of Eden and see where the truth lies.

Genesis never deifies Adam. How can we have something offered which could never exist in the first place? If Adam was to have deity by any definition, why would Satan bother to offer to Adam and Eve,the opportunity to become "as gods"?


Yes, there is a promise in the Bible that we can become gods. But notice who made the promise. SATAN! And he is still making the same vain promise today. But the Lord God says,

Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. Is. 43:10

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. Is.45:5

With Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-did

 2007/9/2 9:12





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