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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Logic, you missed the points I was making. I'll try to be more explicit next time.

I got the point.
However, I was coming against this:
Quote:
Nile wrote:
If I died in the midst of this sin, would I be justified of it? That is, did I lose my justification before God?
I believe yes, I lost my justification before God.


I am attempting to prove to you that your conclusion is wrong.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
When I said "relationship" I was thinking a saving relationship.

The only relationship with Christ is one that saves, there is no other relationship with Him.
[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]

Quote:
Nile wrote:
If we sin, it shows that we have no faith, thus no relationship....
...Same thing.

I would think that my point still stands:
If when we sin it shows that we are not yet perfected, but we still have a "saving relationship". If we have no works shows that we have no faith, thus no "saving relationship"(James 2:14).

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
[b]Hebrews 10:26-27[/b] [color=990000]For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,
[b]:27[/b] but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.[/color]

I'd consider this eisegesis, inserting things into the text that aren't there.

This is from the greek, The "prestent active plure." are the tense, Case, and number of the word sin.

If the word sin in this verse is prestent, active, plure, that would mean that one is "preasently doing sin[b][size=small]s[/size][/b] and will continue to sin", therefor, this one is not saved.
This is not eisegesis.

Quote:
If you rebel against God and sin, guess what - you're living a life of sin.

If I stumble in a sin, I am not rebeling against God, I am only weak.
If I sin once, I am not "living a life of sin"
Christains do not plan sin, that is to rebel.
To sin and stay in it is living a life of sin.

I hope I am not only misunderstanding you, However, I do hope that you agree to all this.

 2007/8/30 14:58Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

he may be able to please God but he must fear that he may sin at his last breath. Thats fear, not hope. Do you think we will be perfected in this life and this body?

 2007/8/30 15:19Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Somehow we're all totally confused Logic ^_^

Quote:
The only relationship with Christ is one that saves, there is no other relationship with Him.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.


How would you fill in these blanks:

Those who say they know Him ought to ____.
Those who say they know Him but don't [from above], ____.

Quote:
This is from the greek, The "prestent active plure." are the tense, Case, and number of the word sin.

If the word sin in this verse is prestent, active, plure, that would mean that one is "preasently doing sins and will continue to sin", therefor, this one is not saved.
This is not eisegesis.


The only thing I saw that was eisegesis was the "many sins" in the other post. Other than that I agree.

Quote:
If I stumble in a sin, I am not rebeling against God, I am only weak.


You can sin without rebeling against God?!
Amazing!
What sin is this that does not rebel against the law, love, and Spirit of God?


Quote:
If I stumble in a sin, I am not rebeling against God, I am only weak.
If I sin once, I am not "living a life of sin"
Christains do not plan sin, that is to rebel.
To sin and stay in it is living a life of sin.


I think a big problem here is this "sin once" mentality. I don't think you can step into sin and step out just like that without a thought. You do not sin isolatedly.

Either you are living unto the Father or you are not.
Either you are living in Christ or you are not.
Either you are living by Holy Spirit or you are not.

No middle ground here. If you sin, you cease to live unto the Father, you cease to live in Christ, and you cease to live by the Spirit. You are no longer living a life of holiness, but of sin.

Until you come back to the Father in repentance, and indeed, until you repent, you are continuing in a life of sin.

...

Whew, I'm getting worn out by all of this. I'm going out of town tomorrow morning and won't be back until Tuesday, so I will not likely respond after today until then.

Thanks for the talk though, this is good sharpening.

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 15:35Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Lkid wrote:
he may be able to please God but he must fear that he may sin at his last breath. Thats fear, not hope. Do you think we will be perfected in this life and this body?



I have no such fear any more than Paul had such a fear.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 15:37Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

i'm a child of God
then i sin
Then i'm not a child of God
then i repent
Then i am a child of God
then i sin again
then i'm not a child of God
then i repent....????

 2007/8/30 15:46Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:

How would you fill in these blanks:

Those who say they know Him ought to ____.
Those who say they know Him but don't [from above], ____.


Those who say they know Him ought to act like it?
I don't get it, what realy should go in the blanks?

Quote:
Nile wrote:
You can sin without rebeling against God?!
Amazing!
What sin is this that does not rebel against the law, love, and Spirit of God?


Rebellion is concious, willing defiance against an authority.
If all sin is rebellion, then explain this Psalm:
[b]Psalm 19:12[/b] [color=990000]Who can understand his errors? [b]cleanse me from secret faults[/b][/color]
In other words:
Who can discern his errors? Forgive me when I sin without knowing it.

Secret faults are those which I have committed without knowing that they were sins, sins of ignorance;

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Either you are living unto the Father or you are not.
Either you are living in Christ or you are not.
Either you are living by Holy Spirit or you are not.

No middle ground here. If you sin, you cease to live unto the Father, you cease to live in Christ, and you cease to live by the Spirit. You are no longer living a life of holiness, but of sin.

Until you come back to the Father in repentance, and indeed, until you repent, you are continuing in a life of sin.

Sounds like you think that Christians stay in sin for a while, then repent after they get their fill of the flesh.

The fact is that true Christins are grieved the moment they sin. They do not dwell in sin as you imply.
As for those secret faults that are mentioned in Psalm 19:12, I doubt that a christian "ceases to live unto the Father, or ceases to live in Christ, or ceases to live by the Spirit" in those secret faults.

 2007/8/30 20:10Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Lkid wrote:
i'm a child of God
then i sin
Then i'm not a child of God
then i repent
Then i am a child of God
then i sin again
then i'm not a child of God
then i repent....????



If one is foolish and immature, then yes.
"Must you lay once again a foundation of repentance?"

I'm not proposing something outrageous, it's simple: Love God and Love others.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 20:14Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Those who say they know Him ought to act like it?
I don't get it, what realy should go in the blanks?



There are multiple answers.

Those who say they know Him ought to [u]walk in the light, as He is in the light[/u].
Those who say they know Him, but do not walk in the light, as He is in the light, [u]lie, and do not practice the truth[/u].

Those who say they know Him ought to [u]keep His commandments[/u].
Those who say they know Him, but do not keep His commandments, [u]are liars and the truth is not in them[/u].

Those who say they know Him ought [u]not to sin[/u].
Those who say they know Him, but sin, [u]have not seen Him or known Him[/u].

ect.

Quote:
Psalm 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse me from secret faults


Amen...no one can be cleansed without God.

First, I have not studied this verse very much, but here is my cursory analysis:

1. This verse is in the psalms which are poetic; the author is not trying to defend a doctrine of "sinning without knowing it".
2. I can think of only two other verses that would even seem to support this idea of "sinning without knowing it".
3. I can think of many many verses that oppose this idea of "sinning without knowing it".
4. I can think of verses that [u]directly[/u] contradict the idea of "sinning without knowing it".
5. The idea that you can "sin without knowing it" offends my conscience; it does not seem right. Some may scoff, but I believe God has given men a proper sense of justice. All of God's way are just, and understandably so.
6. I see no evidence in my own life that I have ever "sinned without knowing it".
7. The concept of "sinning without knowing it" is not expressed in human government. If you were ignorant of committing a sin (such as committing treason unwittingly by delivering a treasonous letter for friend, of which you thought to be nothing special) you are not held guilty.

Here are some commentaries on the verse that I believe shed light on it:

Wesley:
Psa 19:12 - Who - Thy law, O Lord, is holy and just and good. But I fall infinitely short of it. Cleanse - Both by justification, through the blood of thy son; and by sanctification thro' thy holy spirit. Though the first may seem to be principally intended, because he speaks of his past sins. Secret - From the guilt of such sins as were secret either, from others; such as none knows but God and my own conscience: or, from myself; such as I never observed, or did not discern the evil of. Pardon my unknown sins, of which I never repented particularly, as I should have done.

Clarke:
Who can understand his errors? - It is not possible, without much of the Divine light, to understand all our deviations from, not only the letter, but the spirituality, of the Divine law. Frequent self-examination, and walking in the light, are essentially necessary to the requisite degree of spiritual perfection.
Cleanse thou me from secret faults - From those which I have committed, and have forgotten; from those for which I have not repented; from those which have been committed in my heart, but have not been brought to act in my life; from those which I have committed without knowing that they were sins, sins of ignorance; and from those which I have committed in private, for which I should blush and be confounded were they to be made public.

Barnes:
Cleanse thou me from secret faults - The word here rendered secret means that which is hidden, covered, concealed. The reference is to those errors and faults which had been hidden from the eye of him who had committed them, as well as from the eye of the world. The sense is, that the law of God is so spiritual, and so pure, and so extended in its claims, that the author of the psalm felt that it must embrace many things which had been hidden even from his own view - errors and faults lying deep in the soul, and which had never been developed or expressed. From these, as well as from those sins which had been manifest to himself and to the world, he prayed that he might be cleansed. These are the things that pollute the soul; from these the soul must be cleansed, or it can never find permanent peace. A man who does not desire to be cleansed from all these “secret faults” cannot be a child of God; he who is a child of God will pray without ceasing that from these pollutions of the soul he may be made pure.


I thank you very much logic for bringing this verse to my mind :-)

Quote:
Sounds like you think that Christians stay in sin for a while, then repent after they get their fill of the flesh.


Anyone who does that is no more a Christian than my dog.


Quote:
The fact is that true Christins are grieved the moment they sin. They do not dwell in sin as you imply.


When did I imply that Christians dwell in sin?

Quote:
As for those secret faults that are mentioned in Psalm 19:12, I doubt that a christian "ceases to live unto the Father, or ceases to live in Christ, or ceases to live by the Spirit" in those secret faults.


Ah, I see...so what again are these non-deadly, non-God-offending, non-Spirit-grieving sins that do not make one guilty of breaking the whole law, thus being worthy of death?

It's an honest question, I'd like to know what you consider these sins to be and why.

...

It seems like my posts just keep getting longer :-P

With God,
Matt


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/30 21:01Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

i'm not sure i understand your reply. How long ago were you saved? Is this not what you are saying is the pattern of your walk? A person is saved and filled with the Spirit of God. But since no man has walked perfect after salvation yet their life pattern will still have sin in it, though hopefully less and less as we grow more and more in love with Jesus as we are"filled with all spiritual knowledge" over time. It doesn't happen all at once. so a man will be saved, be led of the Lord, turn aside, sin, repent, and do it all over again.

No man has walked perfectly immediately after salvation until his death. Not Paul, not Peter, no one. I don't bring this up to excuse sin. By no means! God wants us to stop sinning, but He knows our frame. Thank God for His grace. Grace is not there, by the way because of sin. Grace is there because of who God is.

On another note, there is a difference between transgression and iniquity. do you know it?

 2007/8/31 0:01Profile
Lkid
Member



Joined: 2007/7/6
Posts: 109


 Re:

if a believing mans family is killed in front of him and then he too is killed does he go to hell because he died angry? Don't ridicule. In the west this may be very rare. In the middle east and other areas it is common.

 2007/8/31 0:07Profile





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