| Poster | Thread | Gideons
Member
Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia
| | Re: | | There are so many things that I could say here and I've got to admit I don't believe that many of the issues raised here were addressed in any meaningful way. I'm not trying to be mean here Mitch, but I don't fully understand where you're coming from on some of these issues. Perhaps we've come at you from all sides and you're trying to explain, albeit in a brief way.
I'm not interested in attacking you or anyone else on SermonIndex.
The problem I see in the WOF movement (and it's not limited to those folks), is that it's all about me (my finances, my health, my, my, etc...). I think that too much of the focus in the "church" is self-centered, rather than Christ centered. Where is the picking up the cross daily and focusing on what God wants and having Him mold us, so that we're only interested in His perspective.
You cited Smith Wigglesworth, who was certainly a very Godly man and I enjoy reading about him and all the things that God did through him. I don't believe he would identify with much of what is happening in the church today, particularly in the Charismatic renewal that was initiated in part by him.
As for me, I want the focus to be on Christ and a surrendered life to him. I want to seek God's face, not his hand (not simply what he can do for me). That's my hope for all of us, who want to see His name glorified above all.
_________________
Ed Pugh
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|  2004/7/5 16:06 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
I havne't backed off of anything, so much being said here, I might have missed something. Please repeat what it is you want to me to tell you again.
I would like to say that alot of your comments mitch are uncalled for and you immediately throw me, others on sermonindex and even great saints like A.W. tozer and wilkerson into the same side of things that we are decieved and need to come to realize higher spiritual truth. You speak from a lofty precipise and state lofty things but in your comments and explainations of scriptures I don't see the spirit of truth evident in the way that I have read of men from the past. Unless of course God is doing a new thing and everyone in church history was in a sort of spiritual cloud waiting for the final outpouring of Gods revelation on the church in the end times through teachers like Hagin. (I am being sarcastic).
I would ask only that you listen to the men from the past and not close your mind to understanding from God. Your quoting of A.W. tozer from his sermon on hebrews 11 is blatantly wrong and he is not teaching lies. A.W. Tozer is not a perfect man but he taught scripture from a desire for truth. I am feeling that its not even worth persuing this conversation much further because its evident that me and others on this site are lacking in your eyes and I think your only purpose for coming here is to clear Hagin's name in your estimation and claim that we are lacking spiritually.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/5 17:22 | Profile | jeremyhulsey
Member
Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777
| | Re: | | Wow, I've been away a little and I've also been trying to keep a dying computer alive. It looks like I've been absent for most of this debate, but I'll join in anyway:-).
In another debate on this forum Philo (Ron) in commenting on the civillity of those of us who disagreed yet respected each other said:
Quote:
Most forums would have degenerated into into imprecatory oaths and prayers long before this.
Yep :-) This debate, however, is far different from that of the age of the earth thread. We are discussing a topic that has at its core, the orthodoxy of Scripture. Orthodoxy is just a big 50 cent word that makes you sound intelligent and means to believe rightly or correctly. Believing correctly is VERY important because believing a lie can be eternally fatal according to scripture.
Another problem is division or schisms in the Church. Unity is to be a hallmark of Christianity. But what kind of unity? Certainly not unity for the sake of unity, but unity as a result of truth, the truth found in the Word of God. I don't know if it was an Anglican minister or who exactly said it but he made the unfortunate statement, "If we must choose between heresy and division, we should choose heresy." This minister fails to realize that the Bible teaches that heresy is the root of division. (1Cor 11:18-19,Rom 16:17-18) Heresy is a teaching that has separated itself from the truth to the point that men of God must separate themselves from those who teach heresies.
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Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them. Therefore watch and remember that for the time of three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. (Acts 20:29-31)
Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. For certain men crept in secretly, those having been of old previously written into this condemnation, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God for unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.(Jude 1:3-4)
While there has been a challenge posed by our friend Mitch, I agree with Gideons that there has been very little substance to this discussion. Almost from the beginning it has been off topic. Mitch seems to be questioning why we consider Hagin a heretic (which he was and I hope he repented before he died). I will try to answer a few of Mitch's posts, but for the most part I will try to stick with the topic at hand: Was Hagin a heretic.
One of Hagin's more notorious "visionary" tales involves a "demon monky." The story opens with Jesus and Hagin having a conversation on casting out demons, when suddenly a "demon monkey" jumps between them and begins to drown out Jesus' words by yelling, "Yackety, yack, yack, yack" in a shrill voice.
Finally, after some time had passed, Hagin takes control of the situation by telling the demon to "shut up in the name of Jesus."Jesus, no doubt relieved, tells Hagin that "if you hadn't done something about that, I couldn't have." Shocked by Jesus' statement, Hagin immediately suggests to Jesus that perhaps He stumbled over His own words and that rather than saying He "couldn't have," He meant to say He "wouldn't have." Jesus calmly assures Hagin that He had not misspoken...Jesus apparently told him that "sometimes your theology needs upending."
(Christianity In Crisis Pg.333, Hank Hanegraph)
If this were true then the sons of Sceva should have been able to cast out demons because they invoked the name of Jesus. This also reduces "in the name of Jesus" to a witch's incatation. To opperate in the name of someone means to operate in and under their authority. It means that I do not do things of my own accord but am under the command of another. The apostles did not do miracles in their ministry in Acts, but God did miracles at the hands of the Apostles. To say that Jesus is bound by us not invoking His name in this manner is blasphemous.
Other blasphemous statements of Hagin:
[b]Christ's physical death on the cross was not enough to save us.[/b]
[i]How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01[/i]
[b]Jesus tasted spiritual death.[/b]
[i]How Jesus obtained His Name, Tape 44H01[/i]
[b]The Christian "is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth."[/b]
[i]"The Incarnation," The Word of Faith (Dec. 1980)[/i]
[b]"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ"[/b]
[i]"Zoe: The God-Kind of Life," 1989. pp. 35-36, 41[/i]
Quote:
...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ
Mat 24:5 For many will come [b]in My name[/b], saying, [i]I am Christ[/i], and will deceive many.
[b]"Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth"[/b]
[i]"The Incarnation," The Word of Faith 13, December, 1980[/i]
[b]"You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was...the believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth."[/b]
[i]"Word Of Faith" Dec. 1980, p. 14[/i]
[b]"Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God."[/b] [i](Kenneth Hagin, "How Jesus obtained His Name"
Tape #44-H01[/i]
Mitch wrote:
Quote:
And there is nothing that Brother Hagin has ever said, that does not line up with the Word of God.
I would have to completely and respectfully disagree with you.
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2004/7/5 23:24 | Profile | ravin
Member
Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.
| | Re: | | I just saw the clip and if there was laughter in some of the church's that I've been to it would be an improvement. What would so n so say are do? well we know that they are not here so the lord has put us here in this place and time to ACT as soldiers of the cross. fear not only believe. Gods mind is far above that of ours. he will take the foolish things of this world and do as he pleases. what would happen if God came and took over the service at your church, is he welcome to do that are is he only given untill 12:o'clock and then put back in a box till next week. do we really mean it when we say lord come and worship with us. what would it be like? dose the building shake where you are going when prayer is going on I'm new to being a christain,but I'll not get in the lords way if he is moving. I read the bible and there are things we don't understand. but because we don't understand them are they wrong. I want the mind of christ. the one who shook and changed the world and is going to continue to shake and change us are we ready. Yes lord I don't understand but you are in control AND I'M NOT. so lord lets shake what can be shaken and see what remains. |
| | 2004/7/5 23:50 | Profile | jeremyhulsey
Member
Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777
| | Re: | | Quote:
Mitch wrote: "However, I have figured a little something out, I have found this website is based I believe, on Baptist 'Doctrine'. That can easily explain, why Brother Hagin isn't liked so much by people who like to post here."
Reply: Ok I know in the community guidlines I'm not supposed to use things like LOL but I think this applies here. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means "lauging out loud." (yeah I know most of us knows what it means, but that's for the sake of those who don't)
Sorry Mitch, nothing intended towards you personally but that satement kind of tickled me. In fact, you couldn't be more wrong. The dislike of Hagin's false teachings is not the result of a dislike of Pentecostalism, but a dislike of false teachings. I am one of many pentecostals on this site. Hagin does not represent Pentecostalism, but cultic doctrines first espoused by E.W. Kenyon, from whom he stole most of his material.
Hank Hanegraph begins Ch. 3 of his book, Christianity In Crisis by saying: "I have become weary of those who use the perversions of the Faith movement to drive a wedge between charsimatic and noncharismatic Christians. Frankly, this is both counterproductive and divisive, for the Faith movement is not charismatic; it is cultic."
He goes on in the same chapter to talk about and list pentecostal men who are contending for the faith: "Are we prepared to call a man like Dr. Gordon Fee, one of the foremost Bible scholars today, "keen but clueless"? Are we going to say that Dr. Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute and father of the moder-day countercult revolution, had zeal but not in accordance with knowledge? Do we really want to categorize Chuck Smith, pastor of Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa, California, and founder of one of the largest and most effective Christian movements in modern-day history, as having enthusiasm without enlightenment?
Some of today's clearest thinkers are charismatic Christians: men like Dr. Paul Walker of the Mount Paran Church of God in Atlanta, Ga; Dr. Mark Rutland of Calvary Assembly in Orlando, Fl...
More over, some of the most scholarly rebuttals of Faith theology have come from within the charismatic movement itself. Notable examples include the works of Walter Martin, Gordon Fee, Dan McConnell, Charles Farah, Elliot Miller, H. Terris Neuman, and Dale H. Simmons."
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The Bible says that By his stripes ye WERE healed.
You also display a fundemental misunderstanding of the scriptures. Yes I believe that healing is in the atonement, but it is promised the same way that eternal life is promised. Utimately if we hold to our faith we will be healed. We are promised eternal life but we still die? In the same way we are promised healing, but in the eternal, in our resurrection bodies. Paul calls our current state a body of death in which we can expect to die. Healing DOES take place today, but with a purpose. You always see healing as taking place where the Gospel is being preached. It is an evangelism tool of the Holy Spirit. It is not a right of the believer in which we are to demand it before the throne of God. Smith Wigglesworth early in his ministry taught that if a man had to pray seven times for a healing, the first six times were not in faith. He changed his attitude later when he suffered from gall stones and was not healed and the continued deafness of his daughter (who was never healed at least in this life, but she will ultimately be healed in the resurrection)
Two of the most powerful pentecostal ministers listed on this site are Dave Wilkerson and Carter Conlon. There is a wealth of sermons which will bless you there Mitch. There is no need to point out any specific messages, just download any of them and you will be blessed tremendously by two VERY pentecostal men of God.
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
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| | 2004/7/6 1:13 | Profile | jouko
Member
Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia
| | Re: | | Psa 19:8 The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb.
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
But how were they to try them? Principally by that anointing - that spiritual light and discernment which they had received from God; and also by comparing the doctrine of these men with what they had heard from the beginning. The anointing here mentioned seems to mean the spirit of illumination, or great knowledge and discernment in spiritual things. By this they could readily distinguish the false apostles from the true.
1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.
Mat 6:22 The lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Blessings jouko
_________________
Jouko Hakola
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| | 2004/7/6 2:31 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: Hagin..HAHA??? | | Interestingly, there was a Google ad over to the left that advertised a site where we can purchase heaps of Hagin's books. :-P
Quote:
sermonindex wrote:
"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ"
This "you are christ" teaching is something that I have heard a bit over the past few years, and can be misunderstood. Many who dictate (as in, type out) these type of sermons that are preached do so as "you are Christ", which is different from the above. The teaching goes as follows:
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Jesus is the Christ of The Father
The christian is the christ of Christ.
The key in this in letter casing of the "C". To term something as a bibleis to refer to a collection of books, but the term "The Bible" can only be used for Holy Scripture, as it defines the "collection of books to end all collections of books". If I was to say to you that a christian is anointed by Christ to serve Him, few would have a problem. And that's what the word christ means.
In Hebrew christ (messiah) means:
Quote:
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.
Strongs:4899 (Hebrew)
In Greek christos:
Quote:
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.
Strong:5547 (Greek)
Although in the New Testament, the word is only used for Jesus Christ, in the Old Testament, it is used for anointed as well. In my experience, the "you are christ" message, is used by ppl who are trying to break through "cliche mindsets" that make ppl think, "Oh yeah, I've heard that before", by offending their sense of orthodoxy (much like Katz, when he describes what it means to be saved).
The first time that I heard it preached was by a man named Paul Schell (if you really want to talk about heresy in the church, check out this guy:-)). Half the extremely charismatic church walked out half way through the sermon.
The second time was by Sunday Adelaja. Who stated the we are "saviours" (based on Ob 21). When Ps Sunday shared, he stated his motives & rational behind his words, during the 2 1/2 hour sermon.
Basically this teaching states that christians are anointed & are made in the image of God.
Do I agree with or endorse Hagin? Let's just say I'm wary of him. It was a good argument put forward about Hagin's prophecy about Jesus' return.
Does this mean that we are to reject all that he had to say? In scripture there is only one reference to the fact that Noah was a "preacher of righteousness", and that was made millennia after the fact. If we were to ignore this anonymous epistle writer, we would miss this fact. Jude referred to the apocrypha when mentioning Enoch's prophecy, again the only reference. What if God, in His wisdom, decided to reveal something in His word through this man, never to be revealed again (I'm not talking about extra-biblical revelation, but a neglected part of The Bible in need of restoration)? Would we have the humility to receive it?
Quote:
"Every bush is burning. Some remove their shoes, while others merely watch the flames."
By nature, we tend to take a scientific approach to everything in life. We start with a supposition, and we end with a conclusion based on that hypothesis. If we like a preacher, we tend to justify all his actions & words. If we dislike him, we tend to reject everything that comes out of his mouth. A mature christian must develope the ability to separate the meat from the bones (especially in this age of great apostasy), or we may as well hermitise with our Bible, rejecting all preaching.
I guess that I just want to make one last attempt to explain the "baby/bathwater" principle in detail before my head starts bleeding ;-).
Love ya guys.
P.S. Regarding the laughter thing, I used to embrace it, now I reject it. I know it is a ''real" thing (though l also know that many fake it), but I also know that ouji boards & spiritism is ''real" (not that I believe that this is ''demonic in nature"). My reasons are slightly different from many who reject it, but are equally sound. To those who accept the phenomena, I urge you to follow the little "question mark" in your heart on the matter (C'mon, you know it's there) and at least test it with scripture. Any phenomena that uses as it's defense, "not everything needs to be backed up in scripture" needs to be considered "dubious in nature" (go Art :-)). Ask yourself this, "Why would God do this?", 'coz I don't buy this "spiritual anesthesia" thing.
_________________
Aaron Ireland
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| | 2004/7/6 5:02 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
...You speak from a lofty precipise and state lofty things but in your comments and explainations of scriptures I don't see the spirit of truth evident in the way that I have read of men from the past.....
Of coures the way I speak, and the way Brother Hagin and many other Christians today speak sound different from those guys you so admire from the Past. As I said, one of those heretics you like so much, has gone to the point of saying that there is no definition of Faith anywhere in the Bible, EVEN after reading Hebrews 11. Its obvious, talking to you, is not something that can continue. You are so blinded, that you are following a man, who just removes parts of Gods Word when he sees fit. I would have to think that perhaps he had bad things happen in his life, and instead of admitting he was weak, he made God weak.
However I will continue to pray for you Sir, the Holy Spirit will lead you through the Word and help you see the real truth if you will only allow him.
Praise be to God,
Mitch |
| | 2004/7/6 7:49 | |
| | Healing | | There is no reason whatsoever to think that Healing is only given to us for our life after this. We already know there is no pain and sickness in Heaven. So why on Earth would God provide a way for us to be healed, in a place where we need no healing? God has made it clear in his Word, that those promises are for today. Have Faith in God, I Dare you all to believe the Bible Word for Word, not word for what you wanna hear word. Seek your God, he will show you the mysteries.
Mitch |
| | 2004/7/6 7:55 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Brother Mitch,
Like it or not there is much that you refuse to come to grips with and much that you are drawing assumptions from.
On occasion there are some that will come here with their agenda's in tow, not willing to listen or consider any other point of view than their own. In short time they are passing judgment on a whole community of brethren, what their denominational slant is, how they think, their experience etc. all summed up in a neat little package. At the same time drawing inferences and then making statements not based on fact.
Case in point:
Quote:
Have you not read where I've said that I use to be blind to the Truth like you are right now? Have you not read where I've said, I have been wrong in the Past. But I know, I know just as well as I know what my son's name is, that I am right about most of everything I believe in. Because just as Jesus said , he has CONFIRMED the Word.[b] You can't say God doesn't want us to be healed, when you can watch someone speak the name of Jesus into a situation, and watch someone be healed. You can't say God doesn't want us prosperous when you can sit and watch someone speak the name of Jesus and watch someone go from having nothing, to being in a position to help others. To deny the things God has written to us, is absurd. To sit and say, God doesn't want to heal us, to sit and say that Jesus did not die for our sickness's as well as our salvation, is just abusrd, and it shows just how blatanly you are ignoring Gods Word.[/b] I have respnded in full to all your scripture references, what can you say for the two I have shown you?
It is obvious that you drew these ideas from inferences because nowhere did I make any such comments. As far as the references go, I don't know which two you are referring to.
But this all seems to be besides the point.
What exactly is it that you are attempting to do here? Are you trying to be a help or do you only care about pointing out how spiritually blind we all are in your estimation?
To attempt to steer this back again to what the original post was about....This video is disgusting, if it was filmed in a comedy club it would make sense but to turn the church into one is blasphemous. Is this the same church purchased by the blood of the martyr's? The same church that our brethren around the world are now suffering persecution, torture and abuse for?
Is this what we would have the unbelieving world think that Christianity is about, even in part?
Would Jesus approve of this?
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2004/7/6 8:29 | Profile |
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