| Poster | Thread | lwpray
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Is God sovereign or a subject?
The Faith cosmology teaches that God must obey certain spiritual laws which regulates faith and procedure on Earth and He cannot do otherwise. This stance has destroyed Gods sovereignty, His right of self-determination and self-rule within His universe. No man can force Gods hand with formulas, and there are no spiritual laws apart from His will.
In the universe, God works all things after the counsel of His will, Eph 1:11, not according to the formulas of mans will.
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Lars Widerberg
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|  2004/7/5 10:22 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I do not have a broad idea of Christianity. There are only one group of Christians, and those are them who follow God's commandments. Who take the Word of God, and live by it. The rest, Sir, are just heretics, and disciples of Satan, not Jesus. To deny any part of the Word, is to deny Christ. can they still make it to heaven? I haven't any idea how to even begin to comprehend God's Mercy. So I can not speak about how much of the Gospel you have to believe, before you can make it to heaven. However I do know, that without Faith, it is impossible to please God. So for the Tozer fellow, and those whom agree with him, its a shame God told us that we have to have something to please him, then never once told us what that something is. Never bothered to define it for us. I dont' think the topic here can carry on much longer, I will keep you in my mind always, and hope someday to see you up in Heaven rejoicing around the Thone of God. I ask that you continue to study and pray, and I am sure God will fully revleal his Scripture to you, if you simply ask.
Mitch Miller |
| | 2004/7/5 10:25 | |
| | God and Spiritual Laws | | If you do not believe God has set certain Laws, that even he must obey, why is it that you think people can be healed by the laying on of hands, yet, people die everday from disease and sickness? What kind of a God, would just pick and chose who he heals? And do you believe he kills? Do you think he says.. Ok.. Imma kill you today, yet Imma heal that other guy over there. Think about it for a bit, God has made a Covenant with us, that he can not break. To say he has no laws with which he has to abide, is to say that he is a Liar. And he is not a man that he should lie.
Mitch |
| | 2004/7/5 10:28 | | sermonindex
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I dont' think the topic here can carry on much longer
I don't think this topic discussion will last because you are not responding to things that are being layed out clearly for you in answer to your questions:
1) the scripture I posted: 1 Timothy 6:3-5
2) the distinction I made of the holy spirit not just being about power and gifts, but rather and more importantly about fruit, love, and [b]truth[/b].
3) I posted clearly about the prosperity gospel and asked you about it, and even quoted hagin himself.
Please let me know if you are willing to respond to these points, I think if we keep talking past each other on the points of discussion that matter than that will result in a discussion that doesnt get to far.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/5 10:31 | Profile | lwpray
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"In the spiritual realm God has set into motion certain laws, just as He set laws in the natural realm. Those laws in the natural realm work, dont they? Just as you get into contact with those natural laws or put them into practice they work for you. Over on the spiritual realm the same thing is true. I have come to the conclusion that the law of faith is a spiritual law, that God has put this law into motion, and that as surely as you come into contact with it it will work for you."
Hagin
The Law of Faith
A universe governed by spiritual laws, instead of God. . .
This is the fundamental rule of positive confession.
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Lars Widerberg
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| | 2004/7/5 10:35 | Profile | sermonindex
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What kind of a God, would just pick and chose who he heals?
A soveriegn God.
There are times where God does not heal but rather allows something to come upon a man for a reason. One example of this is in the book of Job where God allows satan himself to inflict the man, or rather if you read the scripture in the first 2 chapters more closely you will realize that it is actually God who kills job's family and also inflicts him with sores. Satan was the one that requested it be done and God did it to prove that this man's faith would hold strong in Himself.
In the Acts of the Apostles they healed many, and even to a point where the shadow of peter would heal a man. But if you read the new testament carefully you will see a few places where there is sickness amongst even the apostles.
[b]1 Timothy 5:23[/b] - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
This scripture clearly shows that the apostle timothy had many sicknesses, does that mean he was lacking faith?
[b]2 Corinthians 12:7[/b] - To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
God allowed a physical problem to happen to Paul the Apostle because He said my grace is sufficent.
There are more examples if you want but I think this goes to prove a point that God does allow sickeness in believers and sometimes it can be for a purpose.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/5 10:40 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Ok let me try to shed some light onto those questions you had.
First off, you said that because Brother Hagin has said Gain is godliness, that was a message from the pits of hell, or something to that affect, and you directed me towards 1 Timothy 6:3-5... Sir had you just went one more verse further, you would see where it is written
But godliness with contentment, is great gain.
Also if we study this set of Scripture out, go back to the Start of the Chapter, and read it entirely, we know Paul is warning us agianst Greedy teachers, people who are greedy, we know what greed is. And just because like me, Brother Hagin realized that God has given us health, and prosperity.. just because we take something that was given to us, does not mean we are greedy. It means we just decided to not allow Christ to die in vain on the Cross. This scripture does nothing to say that allowing God to bless us, is a sin. Just that we can not be greedy. We can not go and deman what God does not want us to have. Which for that matter, would be something a true Christian, would not do.
And now to address your thoughts on the Holy Spirit, you said its not just about Power. I understand where you are coming from. And from the moment we are born, we have the witness of teh Spirit living in us. But the Baptism of the Holy Ghost which I am talking about, is that Spirit of Power. Jesus said 'You shall be endued with power, after that the Holy Ghost has come upon you... " So yes, the Holy Ghost is about Power. It is to allow us to walk closer to God. To be able to speak to him in a heavnely language, to cast out demons, to heal the sick, to do whatever we need to do in the name of Jesus Christ.
As for the prospeity Gospel, I have heard that clip you sent me to. And I can tell you thats about as unintelligent preaching as you can get. Whomever that man is, I hope he found God before he passed on, if he has already passed on. But he was teaching about a false god, one who is weak, and powerless.
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| | 2004/7/5 10:48 | | lwpray
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| | Re: God and Spiritual Laws | |
Anybody, Christian or non-Christian, can plug into this universal law of faith and get results. . .
It used to bother me, explains Hagin, when Id see unsaved people getting results. Then it dawned on me what the sinners were doing: they were cooperating with the law of God the law of faith.
Hagin , Having faith in your Faith.
- No need to repent and be born again, no need of the work of the cross of Christ, no need of sanctification unto submission to the Throne of Christ.
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Lars Widerberg
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| | 2004/7/5 11:03 | Profile | crsschk
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Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: God and Spiritual Laws | | Whoa there brother!
I have been following this along and would just ask, please slow down here.
I know where you are coming from brother because I have been there. It is quite normal to defend those that you may have learned under and often very difficult to hear what others are attempting to say not because they have a particular agenda but they too love the truth and want to be of some help.
My first thought in regards to this whole thread was this: What was the topic about? The very first post is in regards to the video.
Now this might be a problem being that it is not working on my computer right now, though I have seen it before.
Did you watch this video?
What are your thoughts in regards to it?
Shouldn't this be the starting point?
We will get absolutely nowhere if we just talk past one another and rush past things.
Think for the most part you are not seeking to be divisive, but I can see this getting out of hand because some of the earlier comments had not been dealt with, from both sides.
So maybe we could back up here a bit and try and take these one at a time, starting with the video.
Don't have a lot of time to spend on this right now but would be willing to help out where I can.
There is quite a bit that is problematic with what Kenneth Haggin [i]teaches[/i] and I have done a bit of research that is collaborated with the dozen or so books that I have here from him.
So whatever links I would put up here would not be just opinions of others but from ministry's that are sound and have great concerns for the brethren as opposed to just tearing somebody down for no reason. That is not to say that some don't have an opposite zeal, like those who want to defend and it may color their judgment. But sometimes we have to be challenged by hearing things that at first sound 'harsh' to our ears. If we truly want to be 'teachable' then we will have to table our emotions and take a slower more thought out approach, weighing the points and prayerfully asking the Lord if we may have been in error. But we can't do it at this pace.
I subscribed to a lot of this same type of teaching brother and it took me quite a while to come to grips with many aspects of what I thought was true and later found to be false. Much had to be unlearned, the difficulty I found was that it isn't all that easy because much of what was taught is true, some of it is slightly twisted out of context and the motives as to why (on purpose? by accident? improper understanding of how to read scripture or any historical literature for that matter?) It becomes very muddy and takes time and effort to bring some clarity.
Will hold off on the links for now.
But let us be a help and may you also be a help to us. I think there are some things that brother Haggin taught early on that are truly biblical.
One being something I flipped to here that is blatantly obvious, that all of our subjective experiences must conform to Gods word. Where it began to err from there....I digress.
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Mike Balog
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| | 2004/7/5 11:12 | Profile | sermonindex
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And just because like me, Brother Hagin realized that God has given us health, and prosperity.. just because we take something that was given to us, does not mean we are greedy.
Ok so you state that you believe this popular doctrine that is prevading some Christian circles. Are you also trying to say that Jesus died so we could be healthy and wealthy? The passage in 1 Timothy 6 cannot be more clear towards false teachers using this doctrine in the time of Paul and how glib we are if we don't see it in our day:
[b]1 Timothy 6:1-21[/b] - Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
After carefully reading this a few times you will notice that firstly Paul the apostle teaches that there is a doctrine about gain, and then he warns people not to live after these ways but rather be 'rich in good works'
"men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."
[i]Matthew Henry Commentary[/i] - [b]supposing that gain is godliness:[/b] Making religion yield to their secular interests. Such persons who are given to perverse disputes are destitute of the truth, especially those who act in this manner for the sake of gain supposing gain to be godliness. Good Christians will withdraw themselves from such.
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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
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| | 2004/7/5 11:15 | Profile |
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