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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Getting the facts straight.

Quote:
And look where that behavior has taken them today!!!



You would be wise to look to your own and your poor comments.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/9/24 22:37Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Getting the facts straight.

A previous posting for those interested ...

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7778&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Quakers, old and new, and the 'inner light'[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/9/24 22:40Profile









 Re: Getting the facts straight.

Quote:
You would be wise to look to your own and your poor comments



crsschk, Your comment was out of line.

George Fox did not use scripture to guide his "inner light"....and rebelled against many scriptures.

We are sanctified through the Truth, and Jesus said the WORD is truth.

Now, George Fox, who disobeyed scripture, you EXALT for this, and yet call my comments poor.

I stand by what I say, and warn others to look thoroughly into the teachings of George Fox.

The Holy Spirit illuminates God's Word, He doesn't thumb His nose at it and say....Hay, I the Holy Spirit have exalted myself above the Word of God...follow me. That's totally contrary to scripture.

Yes, look where this INNER LIGHT has taken them.

THY WORD is a LAMP unto my feet...a LIGHT unto my path.

We are Born Again of the WORD OF GOD!!! James.
Cleansed through the Word, Sanctified through the WORD. Obviously you have more respect for men and their INNER LIGHT then the WORD.


Quote:
You would be wise to look to your own and your poor comments.



No Dear!! We are to LOOK on others as more important than ourselves....even when telling the truth comes back with a thoughtless reply. That's also in the WORD.

Unless George Fox has been resurrected, George Fox will be what he was. There is no new George Fox.

Love in Christ
Katy-did
George Fox felt that the INNER LIGHT far exceeded obedience to the Word of God.

I know that is not the LIGHT David spoke of in the Psalms,

Thy [b][color=CC0000]WORD [/color][/b]is a [b][color=CC0000]LIGHT[/color][/b]unto my feet, and a [b][color=CC0000]LAMP[/color][/b] unto my path.

George Fox dis-reguarded the Word as secondary to the INNER LIGHT he had...hummmmmmmm!

Also the WORD of God is LIVING and Powerful and sharper than a two edge sword. And no where when we put on the whole armour of God is the "Inner Light" even mentioned. Actually the INNER LIGHT concept is not even in scripture at all.

 2007/9/24 23:19
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Knocking down the scarecrow

Quote:
crsschk, Your comment was out of line.



No, it is your behavior and mean spiritedness amongst other things. There is nothing more diabolical than the business of climbing into someone's head, filling it with ones own notions and then attempting to tear him or her down. It is setting up a scarecrow and then putting a match to it.

These are your own statements below, that you wish to carry back and forth between threads. Compare them with the contrasts here;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19694&forum=35#154307]Is speaking in tongues...[/url]

Quote:
LOVE thinks NO EVIL as you have of me in your false accusations of my being a smart *whatever*. Comments like that are filtered through your OWN mind and reveal YOUR unloving attitude all ready formulated back on another blog.



Quote:
Now, George Fox, who disobeyed scripture, you EXALT for this, and yet call my comments poor.



Precisely what you are doing. Where did you come up with the notion that I was exalting him? A fair treatment is what all should be given ...

Quote:
AND you are presuming to assume that you know EXACTLY what I am talking about, or who I am or what motivates me.Please don't, by your own comments....re-arranging my thoughts and telling me and others what I did and didn't say to begin with.



No duplicity here?

Quote:
Some believe in following their INNER LIGHT, without God's Word to sanctify our minds and give us the mind of Christ. What a dangerous concept. This INNER LIGHT seems to want NEW revelations and thinks very little of the tried and true complete nothing new need be added scriptures.



Carried over from this post as insinuation ...

Quote:
George Fox may very well be quaking still in dread of Judgement Day.



And you? What pride and haughtiness to level such a flippant charge, your comment is out of line in it's very utterance, what happened to;

[i]"LOVE thinks NO EVIL"[/i] ? Your words.

Furthermore you wish to contend with us in the same manner of spirit;

Quote:
I guess teh problem many have with me including the moderators is that I LOVE the WORD of God. I don't play around with it.



Unfortunately you do play around with it not recognizing your duplicity and forgetting that those you may have disagreement with also love God's word. Furthermore your digs at the moderators and this site only continue;

Quote:
What your really saying is, Be quiet, if you don't agree with others. Read SI's standing on the subject....agree or get off!!!



What is "SI's standing"? With such a variety of opinion here in sermons, articles even the discussions themselves you would have to fall back on the notions that you are assuming and accusing others of doing. If there is a 'standing' here it is to put a decided halt to these very notions that cause schisms, divisiveness and quarreling over things not even entered into the minds of those being accused of doing so. It doesn't matter if the subject is transmissions or predestination, it is the behavior, conduct and this diabolical evil that continually jumps to conclusions by the deadly poison of assumption, suspicion, ill will, on and on it goes.

Quote:
One MUST study the background of George Fox against the Written Word of God



Absolutely! And it behooves us as disciples to do so rightly with honesty and integrity, credibility. To lash out and jump all over something, someone without presenting facts accurately and fairly is a disservice. Worse, to present links to obvious cults and others who have taken bit's and pieces and decided to craft their own take on things and use that as the foundation for 'proving' is decidedly cruel and grievous. Would the same logic be used against the Lord, since the Jehovah's Witness's or the Mormons or any of the multitudes that use His Name, borrow that which they like and discard the rest ...

Quote:
George Fox dis-reguarded the Word as secondary to the INNER LIGHT he had...hummmmmmmm!



On the contrary. Though there is much in question undoubtedly over this 'inner light' and what it meant to him or what he tried to express there is as much to state the very opposite.

[i]"'The scripture says' is not only a phrase with Fox. His searching before conversion gave him and almost encyclopaedic grasp of the scripture. It would be almost impossible for someone like Fox to go contrary to the scripture accidentally. This makes 'Fox's' "inner light" a much safer luminary than "inner light" in others.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7778&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Quakers, old and new, and the 'inner light'[/url]

Is this so? In all honesty my memory is not sufficient to recall this exactly but from what I have read in the past of him this rings true still. I do not know nor will assume what level of attention you may have given him and his writings but to make the dangerous statement of his standing before the Lord is beyond the bounds of a saint and shows your pride in thinking you know or would even harbor a guess.

The greater point in all of this is not in George Fox but in touching the nerve of ourselves in how easily we apply wrong judgment without factual representation to back it up. Even then, all of the facts, all the ministry, all of the life, all the things to be considered go by the wayside ...

To touch back to the discernment ministries again. These need their own discernment. The tendencies are to go too far in their temperament and they begin to cherry pick at any mention or equivalent to their particular bias and rather than being a help to the unwary end up being an entity unto themselves. In other words they lose credibility by not presenting facts as they are and let the reader do their own deciding, rather they tend to group and whitewash everything into their presuppositions. For all the good that can do in warning they can undo in being pragmatic to further their cause.

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=19700&forum=13&post_id=&refresh=Go]Some notations regarding "This Forum"[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/9/25 9:44Profile









 Re:

Ephesians 5
1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence

 2007/9/25 12:01









 Re: Discernment

What I posted earlier in reply -

Quote:
I would bring your concern to their attention.
It is one of the more reputable ministries out there - so I'm sure they would be interested.
I've yet to meet a 100% inerrant human - so I would never discredit 'any' ministry on the basis of just the mention of one man. Just as I wouldn't want this Site that we're on, discredited for the variety of authors carried.
I wrote extensively 28 years ago, things that I wouldn't necessarily write today. Though not "error" in the sense of heresy - but I believe when I was younger, I gave much more credit to humans than I would now, nor would I shun any large ministry, solely on the basis of one favored author.
I have Quakers in my own family, so I am somewhat familiar.
The type ministries that were linked to above, meet the most critical judgments of all and are seldom on most people's Favorites List, though they carry one of the hardest of all ministries.
With all due Respect for all that preach(ed) the centrality of Christ, in sincerity.



These links below are looking at both sides of this issue.


http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/T&QQuaker.htm

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/christianmysticspast.htm

http://www.universalfriends.org/statement.html

INNER LIGHT
The basic concept for understanding the Quaker belief is the idea of the Inner Light. George Fox refers to Light Within in his Journal as " ...Spirit and Grace by which all might know their salvation" "that Divine Spirit which would lead them into all l Truth." Friends believe that God is present in everyone, "Christ within." Light is in every man and that Light is Christ. The concept of the Light of God comes from the Gospel of John. John identifies the Light with the Word of God which was embodied i n Jesus Christ. The Light is the source of knowledge of good and evil and of all religious truth. The obedience to the Light is a source of salvation. The Divine Light is in every man of any religion and is universal. The Light within is not to be identif ied with conscience, which is human and fallible. The Light represents spiritual power which increases awareness of permanent values, instructs and transforms conscience and represents the most excellent ethical development ! that we are capable of. It is "God http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs133/Resources/StudentPapers/quaker.html


George Fox -

"Walk cheerfully over the world,
answering that of God in everyone."

"The Light shines through all."

"There is that of divinity in all things."
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/fosteranduniversalism.htm

http://brooklynquaker.blogspot.com/2006/03/more-from-new-george-fox-web-site.html

http://www.bible.ca/cr-quakers.htm

http://www.qis.net/~daruma/hoare.html

http://lightandsilence.org/quakers/george_fox/

http://www.qhpress.org/texts/gfprinc.html#s2

http://www.qhpress.org/texts/oldqwhp/gf-e-toc.htm

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/05/contemplating_t.html

http://www.bustedhalo.com/features/TheLight.htm

_______________________________________________

There are [b]some[/b] "discernment ministries" that the Church needs to be very grateful for.
They were the ones who exposed the WOF movement and others. The Apostle Paul was in the "discernment ministry" - naming names and all.

When they report - it is our job to be Bereans and search out what they are saying. To just say, "I don't agree with them" without doing the many hours of Research that they have done on the subject would be completely unfair and non-fact-based.
To be in that ministry - one needs it to have it as a Full-Time Job. The amount of Research is not within most people's calling nor time allowances nor capability.

Regardless of what one feels about what they read in the links above - in their Research - to disparage Discernment Ministries is something I would never want to find myself doing. Unless through my own hours of Research to find them biased in some way - and I could name a few "discernment minstries" that I could say that about, but I have also 'contacted' them with what I found that showed that they were biased.

For one Christian Website to be disparging others is not the proper course of action here.

These Discernment Ministries "contact" those who they are writing "about" first, to see if they can reason together with the WORD.

It would be much wiser that we not put down another ministry unless we first try to reason with them ourselves first or do the amount of Research that they do, with contacts and all, before we speak a word against them.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is what I see needed here the most.

I've attempted to share that view in my first post, quoted above.

With all due respect in Christ.

 2007/9/25 12:52









 Re: The Matthew 24 Watch

Meant to add - was not sure whether to post what I have to the Quaker thread or here - but in light of the Title of this thread - felt that we are in the days, when Jesus told us to "Watch" and to discern the times and Teachings, all the more, because deceptions are on the increase.
I would say, Incredibly Increasing.
Jesus said, "Beware."

 2007/9/25 12:56









 Re:

This too is from a Quaker site and their beliefs.

They deny the DIETY of Christ. All men DO NOT have the Spirit of God within them, that comes only as we receive Jesus Christ THE SON OF GOD as our Personal Lord and Savior.


What do Quakers believe?

It's difficult, possibly dangerous, to try to summarize any faith in two or three sentences. But in brief Friends believe that the Spirit of God is present in every human being, and every one who seeks to do so can communicate directly and continuously with God at any time and place, needing no clergy or intermediaries. Every one also has responsibilities toward all other persons since they contain something of God. In both relationships -- with God and with other humans -- one relies upon guidance by the inner light which comes from God.

Do they have a formal creed?

They have strong beliefs but no formal creed. The Society of Friends does not require of its members the acceptance of any formula of belief. It holds that the basis of religious fellow- ship is an inward, personal experience, and the essentials of Quaker unity are the love of God and the love of all humanity.

How do these Quakers define God?

Quakers have always tended to speak of the "inner light" or spirit rather than of any more personified God. In general they believe that God is revealed to an individual in the way that each can best understand through the lives of Jesus and others, through the beauties of nature, through the arts and sciences. Through the love of family and friends- One of the values of the Society of Friends is that it allows, even forces, each member or attendee to develop a personal definition of God. Thus to some Quakers God may be a rather specific or concrete figure. To others God may be a rather vague force. But nearly all accept the existence of something which distinguishes human beings from the rest of the world, and which gives each of us a recognition of existence, an ability to think, a willingness to set moral standards of right and wrong, and an acceptance of the responsibility to follow that which is right.

What about the position of Jesus?

Here we begin to concentrate on the kind of Friends whom we characterized as holding to unprogrammed worship and non-conservative- beliefs. Many of these Friends would question the divinity of Jesus. In fact rather than being trinitarian they seem to hold a unitarian belief, with God and the Holy Spirit as interlocked. Jesus is thus regarded as a person who more than most achieved sensitivity to God and the ability to express it. At least to a lesser degree this is also regarded as true of many other religious seers and leaders. Quakers do not establish ranks of saints or prophets, but they respect those persons in the past and present who seem to have this Christlike ability to express religious thinking and to show others the way in which we should try to live.

Katy-Did

PS Oh Yes and this!!
Are Quakers "born again"?

They see no reason why this should be necessary. If each of us has that of God within us, and is guided by the inner light of that divinity, we should continue throughout our lives trying to live as best we can by that light. Quakers think very little about sin, but when they do they regard it not as anything innate but as a failure to live as well as one should and could. As such, it is in the past and atonement for it is not through some penance or now birth, but in a renewed and continued attempt to do better in the present and future. Friends are confident that God supports this effort, and that such support does not depend on some sudden point of conversion or salvation. Similarly, Friends are sure that from birth they are in this relationship with God as part of their very existence and hence there is no need or question of "accepting Christ" or "being saved" or "being redeemed from sin". God is always present and it is merely a matter of being as sensitive as possible to the divine presence and guidance.

Jesus said Ye MUST be Born Again.

I will go with the written WORD of God over the vain imaginations of men any day of the Week.


YES! I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD, and nowhere does God's Word say I am to LOVE the False teachings of False religions at the expense of The Truth that is in Christ Jesus.

And don't let anyone bully you into believing it either!!!!

Praise God when men will say all manner of evil against you for Righteousness sake!!!! GREAT is your reward in Heaven!!!

PS: Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Absolutely, crsschk, Absolutely!!!


 2007/9/25 13:30









 Re: The Matthew 24 Watch

http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm

[b][Part of this letter by Corrie Ten Boom, appears in the book "When Jesus Returns" by British evangelist and Bible teacher David Pawson.]


""The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.
Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said,

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things:
and I will be His God,
and he shall be My son."
This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.
Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick.
"Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence.
She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.

In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,


"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

"If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye;
for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you;
on their part evil is spoken of,
but on your part He is glorified."
(I Peter 3:14)
I found myself saying, "Hallelujah!
Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!"
In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"

The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a martyr for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"

"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train."

"That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – just in time…"

My African friends were nodding and smiling.
Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,

" In the sweet, by and by,
we shall meet on that beautiful shore."
Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed.
I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.
But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.

We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)
for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
Hallelujah!""

- Corrie Ten Boom - 1974

____________________________________________________

A Letter From Ruth Bell Graham [/b]

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/Rapture/ruth.html

 2007/9/25 16:32









 Re:

2nd Timothy says, those who live Godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. When does one first live Godly in Christ Jesus? At the Time of their New Birth? Absolutely!

The Children of the Flesh HATE the children of th Spirit. At the beginning of the Church age Paul and Peter along with others wrote numerous times about our persecutions as Christians and to expect them. This is not about a FURURE persecutuion ,but one that accompanies Salvation.

There have been wars and persecutions from the very beginning, so for us to think we need to prepare for the Great Tribulation, as thought it were an event not yet in America is wrong. Americans may not be murdered, bheaded or the likes, but American Christians living Godly in Christ Jesus ARE Persecuted. With that in mind I share another perspective on the teaching of the Rapture or catching away.

However much we love Corrie Ten Boom, "Antipas, my faithful martyr" died standing for the Word of God in His time...Stephen, and more then we can number were persecuted for speaking the Truth

There are those who claim that the pretribulation rapture is an evil deception because it was invented by evil Jesuits (the evil henchmen of the Catholic Church) for the purpose of deceiving and countering the Protestant reformation, and to distract from the prophetic interpretation of the reformers that the Pope was the antichrist.
For a long time, I felt it unnecessary to investigate these claims, for several obvious reasons. Most importantly, the doctrine of the rapture does not stand or fall on who may have first noticed and taught certain elements of doctrine in scripture. The rapture doctrine is valid only if it is supported by scripture. The Protestant reformation was based on turning to scripture to resolve matters.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That alone should be enough to put this entire matter to rest, and nothing more need be said. It is obvious that we must agree that something true, such as 2+2=4, remains true, even when such a truth is spoken by a liar, or the most evil man. Truth does not become untrue just because an evil or stupid man speaks it. Therefore, there is simply no basis for the claim that the rapture is an evil deception because futurism was once taught by an evil Jesuit. I could read 1000 pages on how the Jesuits are evil, and I can even agree on that. I could even read about, and agree that, an evil Jesuit expounded the doctrine of futurism for the evil purpose of trying to discredit the Protestant reformation. But neither of those facts has any bearing on the truthfulness of the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture.
Further, not only is the entire idea of the "Jesuit rapture" irrelevant (only scripture is relevant) but also, the idea is absurd. The doctrine of the pretribulation rapture is simply not taught by the Catholic Church! Therefore, the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture condemns the Catholic Church because it makes the Catholic Church into a "false prophet" since they do not teach it!
Yet, despite these self-evident truths which destroy the claims that "the pretribulation rapture is an evil deception because it was invented by evil Jesuit Catholics", there is no shortage of web sites that take this position. You can find many such web sites if you go to a search engine and search for "rapture jesuit ribera".
Francisco Ribera was a Jesuit, and he wrote a book on Bible Prophecy in 1585-1590 (?) with the perspective of "futurism". However, Ribera did not invent futurism! The key element of a future antichrist is easily seen in scripture itself and requires no inventiveness of any kind. Ribera simply read 2 Thess 2:3-4 and took the words "temple of God" to mean a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem instead of the view of the reformers that the "temple of God" was referring to the Church, because, of course, the body is the temple. (1 Corinthians 6:19, John 2:21) If anything, the view of the reformers was more inventive (requiring a sort of spiritualized substitution of words) than Ribera's view! Additionally, it is far more obvious to see the 1260 days and/or 42 months, of Revelation 12 & 13 as 3.5 years of 1260 literal days than as 1260 years. It takes no evil inventive subversive genius to simply believe what the Bible says! But the view of a future antichrist in a future literal temple is so clearly evident in the scriptures (and not an invented heresy) that it was also taught by men over 1000 years earlier by Church Fathers such as Irenaeus & Hippolytus around 125 AD. You can look those names up in a search engine and find that Irenaeus & Hippolytus interpreted Daniel's 70th week as a future event, with a future antichrist to come during a final period of tribulation. To read Irenaeus, see "IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES - BOOK V", Chapter 25, paragraph 4 at http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103525.htm or http://www.ccel.org/fathers/ANF-01/iren/iren5.html or http://www.gnosis.org/library/advh5.htm To read in the Bible about the antichrist to come, see Daniel 7-12, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, and Rev 12-13.
There are a few more false assumptions made by those who would deny the pretribulation rapture because of it's supposed Jesuit origins, and I would like to examine a few of them:
False assumption #1. They assume that the reformers and martyrs, because they died for the faith, must have had an absolutely correct and perfect view of prophecy. This assumption elevates men above scripture. The men of the Protestant reformation died because they fought against revering men, they died for the right of all men to respect scripture more than men. Therefore, putting the prophetic beliefs of the reformers and martyrs up on a pedestal is exactly the opposite of the principle for which they fought and died.
If the reformers had the ability and the right to make Christ as their head instead of the Pope, and they trusted the words of Jesus that he would lead them into truth, and they trusted in their ability to read and comprehend the scriptures, then there is nothing stopping us from doing the same thing ourselves.
Speaking of the beliefs of the reformers; there were many early English Bible translations before the King James Version in 1611. In at least seven of these early English translations from the 1500's, the Greek word "apostasia" from 2 Thess 2:3 was translated "departure" or "departing", instead of "falling away" as in the King James, or "rebellion" in other modern translations. When the word is seen as "departure", the verse can easily be seen to teach that the departure, or rapture, must come first, before the Day of the Lord is present, or that the tribulation is present. Therefore, this verse, and the early English translations of many of those martyred for the faith, strongly support the position of the pretribulation rapture. But unless one has the perspective that this prophecy is about future events and sees that the Day of the Lord starts at the time of the coming tribulation, then the "pretribulation" implications of 2 Thess 2:3 might be missed.
I acknowledge that the reformers had a good understanding of prophecy, but certainly not perfect. Not even the authors of the Bible claimed to understand prophecy perfectly in all points.
1 Corinthians 13
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
But we, who live in the last time, should understand prophecy better than any previous generation, because that's what Daniel says, "knowledge shall be increased," and "the wise shall understand."
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
...
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
False assumption #2. They assume that the futurist view of a future antichrist is incompatible with the historicist view that the pope is the antichrist. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are often double or multiple references and double or multiple fulfillments in scripture. Just because there is an "antichrist to come" does not mean there cannot now be any antichrists such as the Pope. The scriptures clearly indicate both a future antichrist to come, and the existence of antichrists at the time scripture was written. Futurism, and the view of the pretribulation rapture, does not take the heat off the Pope.
In the following two scriptures, the future antichrist to come is indicated by the phrases "ye have heard that antichrist shall come" and "whereof ye have heard that it should come". In addition with that, and not to refute that, the verses also indicate the presence of the antichrist already in the world by the phrases, "even now are there many antichrists", and "even now already is it in the world."
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Therefore, to say that the issue is one where the antichrist must either be interpreted as coming in the future only, or existing now in the present only, is really quite a distortion, or lie. Anyone can simply read the scriptures, and easily conclude the answer is both! Those who adhere to the view that it must be "either/or", and not both, are the ones who are playing into the hands of the Jesuits, since it was only by framing the argument in those terms could the Jesuits be successful.
False assumption #3. Often it is assumed or claimed that Francisco Ribera invented the pretribulation rapture. But Ribera did not teach the pretribulation rapture, he primarily taught futurism, and an antichrist to come in the future. Admittedly, yes, Ribera did place the rapture 45 days prior to the end of a 3.5 year tribulation, but not 7 years before. And so, some say he was the first (I don't believe he was, in fact, the first) to split the timing of the rapture and the physical return of Christ. But Ribera's view was more of a form of post tribulation or pre wrath viewpoint where the Church has to go through most of the tribulation.
False assumption #4. Some claim, on the one hand, that the few thousands of early reformers who were killed for their faith somehow proves that their prophetic interpretation of historicism was true. On the other hand, these same people who deny the rapture will claim that the millions in China who were taught about the pretribulation rapture and who were killed for their faith just goes to show that they had the wrong prophetic view. Hmm... It seems that there is a gross inconsistency in the application of this principle which views martyrs for the faith as automatically having the right prophetic views.
I have read that Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian woman who went through the horrors of the Jewish holocaust, said that the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture deceived many Christians in China who were martyred because they were not prepared for being persecuted, because they were taught that persecution would only come in the future. Well, there are several problems with her evaluation. First, there is nothing in the pretrib view that says that there cannot be tribulation today. Therefore, the pretrib view was not responsible for "not preparing" anyone for persecution. So, if Christians in China were unprepared for persecution, then it must have been that they were taught an erroneous view of the pretribulation rapture. Second, there is no need to lament the deaths of Christians, if one has any understanding and faith in the resurrection at all. That's what 1 Thess 4, which is about the rapture, is all about.
1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Again, to revere Corrie Ten Boom's evaluation of the rapture as somehow worthy of adulation since she suffered at the hands of the Nazis is the same old error of elevating the opinions of men above what scripture says.







 2007/9/25 21:25





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