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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Basic Scripture Texts (Total Depravity)

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andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

"No. He was 100% obedient unto death. God does not require obedience from Himself. He is obedience. He does from Man. Jesus was that Man in whom all righteous was perfected.... by His obedience!"

Jesus was God before the cross and
Acts 20:27-28 " Paul's Farewell to Ephesus
" For I have not shunned to decalre unto you all the counsel of GOD." v28 "take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over the which the HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers to feed the Church of GOD, which HE hath purchased with HIS own blood."
Who's blood is Paul talking about in verse 28?
Who shed his blood for use on the cross?
This proves Jesus's diety on the cross.


_________________
andy

 2007/8/10 17:18Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:





Ormly wrote:

What do you believe you possess when claiming to be indwelt by His Life? Aside from His mission to restore mankind, is His Life to be any different in you as an individual.




Ormly, like Paul, I would like to say that it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. At the least that is what I'm praying for God to make a reality in my life and truly pray that he not delay. But, that doesn't answer my question.

If what you're saying is that God has allowed that we can draw nearer to Him and be conformed to His Son's image in this life then I would agree with you that that is His ultimate purpose and goal for us to enter into His presence in heaven. I don't think it is attainable in this life as Scripture teaches that sanctification is the process but glorification is the end point.


 2007/8/10 17:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

andres wrote:

Jesus was God before the cross and
Acts 20:27-28 " Paul's Farewell to Ephesus
" For I have not shunned to decalre unto you all the counsel of GOD." v28 "take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over the which the HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers to feed the Church of GOD, which HE hath purchased with HIS own blood."
Who's blood is Paul talking about in verse 28?
Who shed his blood for use on the cross?
This proves Jesus's diety on the cross.



Indeed, Since the reality and the actuality was completed in Jesus, Paul could review it all as being in the present tense. In other words, from the beginning in the Father until the resurrection Jesus was always the Christ. As a man, To prove this, He never faltered in His way to becoming what God had purposed for Him. Now it is given that we must follow suit since the same Spirit that dwelt in Him now dwells in us..... if we say we are born again.

 2007/8/10 17:52
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

"was he God" --provost

"In reality He was. In actuality He wasn't, until after the Cross.

You'll have to fathom that out in your studies. Its all there." ormly
explain please, in light of
Acts 20:27-28 " Paul's Farewell to Ephesus
" For I have not shunned to decalre unto you all the counsel of GOD." v28 "take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over the which the HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers to feed the Church of GOD, which HE hath purchased with HIS own blood."


_________________
andy

 2007/8/10 18:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross while being 100% God/man.



No. He was 100% obedient unto death. God does not require obedience from Himself. He is obedience. He does from Man. Jesus was that Man in whom all righteous was perfected.... by His obedience!

He was crucifide for claiming to be God.
[b]John 8:58[/b] [color=990000]Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [b]I am[/b].[/color]

Why else did they take up stones, in the next verse, that they might throw them on Him?

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

How do arrive at that from what He cried out? What I hear is perfect man, the only begotten Human being of God, crying out after completing all that the Father gave Him to accomplish. Human I declare, not the Christ of Glory.

This is how:
God forsook Him and as I have shown, Spiritual death is separation between God and man.

Therefore, He died spiritualy, but regained it back by the time He said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"
The proof that He gained spiritual life back is that He now called God "Father" in Luk 23:46 as before He called Him God.

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.

No spiritual death here.

To be forsaken means that God separated from Him, that is the essence of spiriyual death, just as physical deatrh is the spirit separated from the body.

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
To prove it Jesus arose from the grave under His own power which is a result of equality with the Father.

Jesus had spritual life again before He dies physicaly.

Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).

 2007/8/10 19:12Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).



What's your reasoning here?

The wages of our sin is also suffering in hell for all of eternity, something which Christ didn't do.

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/10 19:48Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).

What's your reasoning here?

Plants and animals die, but do not sin, therefore physical death is not the wage of sin.

As I shown before in [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b], Sin separates man from God, and that is what spiritual death is.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
The wages of our sin is also suffering in hell for all of eternity, something which Christ didn't do.

Suffering in hell for all of eternity is only the continuation of the wage of sin.

The penalty of sin is (spiritual)death, the penalty of sin is not "to suffer an eternal punishment".

The opposit of spiritual death is Eternal Life:

The only reason that the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die physicaly without Eternal Life, they die physicaly in spiritual death.
If Eternal Life after physical death is in the presence with God, then to die physicaly without Eternal Life is eternal punishment.

If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be but in outer darkness where there is nashing of teeth.

 2007/8/10 20:05Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

I see, thanks for sharing your reasoning on that Logic.

Quote:
The penalty of sin is (spiritual)death, the penalty of sin is not "to suffer an eternal punishment".



I don't quite follow you here though. I kind of see what you're saying, but not really.

I have always seen it like this: We broke God's law, therefore we deserve to be punished: the just punishment is eternal damnation. Those who trust in Christ are forgiven - they do not have to pay their punishment.

But that doesn't sound like what you're saying. Or am I confused?

Also, do you know of any scriptures that say Christ died spiritually?

Lastly, I'm not sure Isa 59:1-2 is exhaustive on the effects, results, and consequences of sin.

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/10 20:44Profile









 Re:

Quote:

andres wrote:
"was he God" --provost

"In reality He was. In actuality He wasn't, until after the Cross.

You'll have to fathom that out in your studies. Its all there." ormly
explain please, in light of
Acts 20:27-28 " Paul's Farewell to Ephesus
" For I have not shunned to decalre unto you all the counsel of GOD." v28 "take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over the which the HOLY GHOST hath made you overseers to feed the Church of GOD, which HE hath purchased with HIS own blood."



Yep! That is what was accomplished, speaking of Jesus, after the fact of His victory as a human now Glorified as Jesus Christ....The first of first fruits. The [b]reality[/b] of Jesus Christ became an [b]actuality[/b] upon the Cross.

You will have to learn those two words, they mean something.

 2007/8/10 21:25









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross while being 100% God/man.



No. He was 100% obedient unto death. God does not require obedience from Himself. He is obedience. He does from Man. Jesus was that Man in whom all righteous was perfected.... by His obedience!

He was crucifide for claiming to be God.
[b]John 8:58[/b] [color=990000]Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, [b]I am[/b].[/color]

Why else did they take up stones, in the next verse, that they might throw them on Him?

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

How do arrive at that from what He cried out? What I hear is perfect man, the only begotten Human being of God, crying out after completing all that the Father gave Him to accomplish. Human I declare, not the Christ of Glory.

This is how:
God forsook Him and as I have shown, Spiritual death is separation between God and man.

Therefore, He died spiritualy, but regained it back by the time He said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"
The proof that He gained spiritual life back is that He now called God "Father" in Luk 23:46 as before He called Him God.

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.

No spiritual death here.

To be forsaken means that God separated from Him, that is the essence of spiriyual death, just as physical deatrh is the spirit separated from the body.

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
To prove it Jesus arose from the grave under His own power which is a result of equality with the Father.

Jesus had spritual life again before He dies physicaly.

Jesus must have died spiritualy, because that is the wage of sin(Rom 6:23).



You will have study this out on your own. I am not going further in this simply because our understanding of the scriptures is different. You will first have to study to know what Jesus, being the first of first fruits, means. Perhaps when you do we can then discuss further.

 2007/8/10 21:35





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